SID McMATH - DAVID PRYOR transcript one

SID McMATH - DAVID PRYOR

SENATOR DAVID PRYOR: Good evening ladies and gentlemen. I'm David Pryor and we want to welcome you tonight to AETN to welcome one of Arkansas' most distinguished citizens. He's our guest on AETN tonight and he's going to discuss his fabulous career in politics, the military, and a law practice because his 88 years truly spans a significant part of Arkansas history. Of course, the person I'm speaking of is no other than Governor Sidney Sanders McMath, just experiencing his 88th birthday, he is with us this evening and we are very, very proud to welcome you, Governor McMath as our guest.

GOVERNOR SIDNEY SANDERS McMATH: Thank you very much. It's a privilege to be here and it's always a pleasure to appear with you Senator on any forum.

PRYOR: Well, thank you. I want to say that this interview may be a little shabby. This is the first time I have ever been an interviewer. Usually I have been, in the past, in some uncomfortable situations being the interviewee, being the one being interviewed but thank you for being patient with me.

MCMATH: Well, this is the first occasion that I've had to be questioned by a United States Senator.

PRYOR: Well, I will do my very best and we're just going visit tonight. We're going to talk about some Arkansas history and your role in Arkansas history and your role in the development of this State and some of the things that you have seen and some of the things that you've been a part of. Just a little bit of background, if I may, Governor, you were born down in Columbia County and I'm going to let you talk about some of these things in just a little bit, 88 years ago outside the community of Magnolia and then it was a community. In 1920, I think when you were about eight (8), ten (10) or 11 years old you moved from there to Hot Springs. Eventually you moved also to Smackover for a period of time in Union County. You did work in a grocery store and you've shined shoes. You've sold newspapers. You picked cotton and at one time, they say about you that you were so honored and proud to become a Boy Scout that you sold your most prized possession, your bicycle to buy a Boy Scout uniform. We'd like to hear about that after a while but what a career you've had and we've love for you to talk about some of those very early years and your remembrances of that time in Arkansas. And we would certainly like for you to expand on that for us.

MCMATH: Well, David, you know, I was born, as you say, 88 years ago, June the 14th and of course, that's the day when Uncle Sam unfurled the flag, you know, and run Old Glory up to the top of the flagpole.

PRYOR: Very appropriate.

MCMATH: So it's a good day to remember and I've always been happy about the association of my birthday with the flag but I was born in Columbia County on the Big Creek Bottom on the old McMath home place. My great grandfather, Sidney Smith McMath, was Sheriff in Columbia County and incidentally he was named after his great uncle, Sidney Smith of Texas, and he was famous in the family, at least, because he was killed at the battle of Goliad and he and his detachments were going to the rescue of the Alamo.

PRYOR: Wow. So, that is real history.

MCMATH: So, we are proud of that connection with Texas and so he was killed while he was the Sheriff. He went down to arrest some boot-leggers and there were three (3) of them and they got in to a gunfight and one of them had a Winchester rifle and they had a gunfight and he was killed. And so my grandmother, Lula Mae McMath, they had a large family, eight (8) children, boys and girls, and so they were all living on a farm at the time and of the age they could work and so they worked on the farm and kept the place going. And got the girls to school and the boys there until they went off to work but the place we lived on was a cabin on the old McMath home place and had been used by a tenant on the farm and we lived there for about five (5) years. And my sister and I were born there. She's two (2) years older than I am and we were born on the same day, there was two (2) years difference but I have some fond memories of that period in my life. And I've always tried to see how far back in my life I could remember an event, you know, and sometimes very difficult to do. I'm sure you know that but, you know, you get as old as I am, it's so hard to differentiate fiction from the truth. You don't know whether or not you dreamed it.

PRYOR: Our system just doesn't calibrate as well. I think those memories are there but it's harder to calibrate than to bring them out to the surface.

MCMATH: That's right. You know...

PRYOR: They call that a "senior moment".

MCMATH: Right. Right. Maybe you dreamed it or maybe somebody told you about it. If it's repeated enough, you know, it's ought to be part of your memory.

PRYOR: Right.

MCMATH: But there are several instances during my childhood up to, at least, ten (10) years of age that I remember vividly which really had an impact on my life.

PRYOR: Tell us about it.

MCMATH: Well, you mentioned picking cotton. I picked cotton on a farm up to about, let's see, seven (7), eight (8) or nine (9) years of age, I guess, when I was picking cotton and I was a good cotton picker. I could pick a hundred pounds a day, you know. You got a $1.00 a pound. So, I'd get, I mean, a Cent ($.01) a pound, not a $1.00 a pound. I'd make a $1.00 a day.
PRYOR: A $1.00 a day.

MCMATH: And so I'd save my money and, of course...

PRYOR: That's how you bought that bicycle.

MCMATH: Well, that was Hot Springs.

PRYOR: Okay.

MCMATH: Well, anyway, I was saving my money and I kept it in a sack and when I got a certain amount, I'd make stacks of it and count it and I'd always look at the date in which it was made. I was told the older a piece of a coin was, the more valuable it was. So, I kept it as long as I could.

PRYOR: Well, that was a good way to save money.

MCMATH: I kept it as long as I could. But then after a while it's irresistible and spend it, you know. Of course, most of our things were bought through the Sears and Roebuck catalog. So, many of the things that people back at that time came from the Sears and Roebuck catalog. That was a big event in a year's life for the Sears and Roebuck to come along but then you can't select it and feel it and smell it and try it on and so forth.

PRYOR: Right. You could, at that time I think, order a home through Sears and Roebuck. You could order a pre-built home, I believe.

MCMATH: I suppose you could. You could certainly order everything else. But I decided I'd go down to a country store about two (2) miles from where we lived and I took some of my money with me and I was going to make some purchases. So, I went down and, of course, you've been in these country stores, you know, general stores, and they have everything.
PRYOR: Right.

MCMATH: You know.

PRYOR: Yeah.

MCMATH: And they have cotton seed and meal and sugar and flour and coffee and canned goods and bananas and all of these smells blend together.

PRYOR: Right. A great aroma. A great aroma.

MCMATH: And then there's usually a lot of old men sitting around, a lot of them, a few old men, they were usually sitting around smoking a pipe and that pipe tobacco.

PRYOR: Right. Blends in.

MCMATH: Blends in and they've got coffee and so forth. So, I went in and I looked over everything real good and I remember pretty well what I purchased. The first I bought was a dog collar for my dog. I had a dog and his name was Buluga and we were real good companions. So, I bought him a dog collar and I got a pair of shoes. You had to try them on.

PRYOR: How much did a pair of shoes cost?

MCMATH: Oh, I don't know.

PRYOR: About $2.00?

MCMATH: About $2.00, yeah. It didn't cost very much. Of course, we wore shoes when it was cold weather. Didn't need them otherwise, you know. And I bought me a pair of blue jeans and I bought me a blue jean shirt and I got a big Florida orange. I got a great, big red apple. I got a Florida orange for my sister and a big apple for my sister and I bought some chocolate drops for my mother. She loved chocolate. So, I went home with those prized possessions.

PRYOR: And this was the first time to do any purchasing on your own.

MCMATH: From my cotton money, my cotton picking money, yeah. Well, of course, I had a chance to see how people lived.

PRYOR: That's right.

MCMATH: You know, we were really, it's sort of like depression, '28, '29, along in there and the '30s. We had a depression all the time and that part of South Arkansas, generally in the South, particularly in the rural areas because we still hadn't recovered from the Civil War.

PRYOR: If I'm not mistaken your father and your family, you were moving around so he could make a better living. You moved to Smackover and over in Union County and a couple of other communities and maybe even back down to Columbia County and then on to Hot Springs.

MCMATH: That's right. That's right. He was, my dad really didn't live farming but he lived horses and he liked to deal in cattle. So, he would trade and traffic in horses and cows and he would break horses and one of the reasons we went to Foreman was because it's on the Oklahoma line and he could have a great opportunity to trade in livestock and people would bring him horses to break and...

PRYOR: Well, did you ever have to break any horses?

MCMATH: No, I never had to break any horses but I had to ride one several times.

PRYOR: I'll bet you did.

MCMATH: My dad bought a horse sight unseen and he was over in Oklahoma, across the line, and the farmer told my dad that well, that horse you can hitch him behind your car and you can lead him home. My dad had a car with the top down and so forth and he said, "Well, I'll do that" and so he took me with him. And we finally found the farm where the horse was and we found the horse. My dad got acquainted with the horse. He talked to him and told him what was going to happen to get his confidence and so forth and all he brought with him was a halter and a rope. So, he put the halter on him and he tied him behind the car and we started for home. Well, the horse was very cooperative until we got off of his farm, the farm where he lived and then he sat back down. He sat back down. He was stubborn. He wouldn't go anywhere and so my dad tried several times to get him to cooperate and he wouldn't do it and he finally got a good idea. He said, "Well, you just ride him home." I was, I guess I was seven (7). And you will ride him home. I didn't' have a saddle, didn't have a bridle. So, he made an improvised bridle out of the halter. He tied one end of the halter and the other end, the loose end of the rope to the halter. I got on him. Well, my dad rode along with us for a little while and then he thought we were in good shape, so he went on home. But the horse and I had some differences but we finally made it home and it was a long ride bareback and when we got home my mother was glad to see me but she really gave him a tongue lashing.

PRYOR: I'll bet she did.

MCMATH: But he always bragged on me about that. He bragged on me and he bragged on me like he used to brag on one of his big dogs he had. He had a big dog when we lived on the farm, he just loved, one of the greatest dogs you've ever seen and that's what I was saying and so when he bragged on me as he bragged on that dog, well, I felt real good.

PRYOR: You know, this is the second time in our brief few moments together and your memory is phenomenal about all of this. It's amazing you can remember that but two (2) times you've mentioned "dogs" in our interview. Later on, don't let me forget that, because I am absent-minded, I want to ask you about "Old Red". I want to ask you about Old Red because I remember kind of growing up in one of your campaigns, about a campaign issue about Old Red living at the Governor's mansion. We'll get in to that, but, let's, if we could, let's move now to Hot Springs and you are now what? Twelve or so or in school system at Hot Springs.

MCMATH: David, let me, before we get to Hot Springs.

PRYOR: Sure. I was ten (10) years of age.

MCMATH: Let me say a word. You mentioned, we mentioned Bussey.

PRYOR: Uh-huh. Bussey, Arkansas.

MCMATH: Bussey, Arkansas. Bussey, Arkansas had about 50 people living there. It's a wonderful community, and the track, the train drove right through the town and our house was right next to the track and when a train came through there, as it did, it was a water stop sometimes but if it didn't stop, it sounded like it was going right through your living room. And we were talking about separating memories from imagination, dreams or something someone might have told you, there are some of the things about Bussey that I remember distinctly. One was I went to my first grade at school in Bussey. And it was a one (1) room school house. My mother walked me to school. We walked down a dirt road for about three (3) or four (4) miles and we got to the school house and about the time it was taking up. The teacher rang a bell and we all went in. We had about 25 students all in one room and I don't remember exactly what the preliminaries were because I wasn't paying attention to that. I was plotting my escape. I was going to get out of there. Well, as soon as the preliminaries were over, all the students went to their assigned seats. My mother left the school house and I went to a window to watch her clear the school ground and as soon as she got clear of the school ground I skee-daddled out. I left the school, I skee-daddled over to this railroad track which was a short cut home and I got on that railroad track and I hot-footed it towards home and there was one hazard I had to cross which was a swamp and in this swamp they had alligators and moccasins. So, I soft-pedaled over that swamp and then I ran home and my mother got home and I was sitting on the front porch.

PRYOR: You beat her home.

MCMATH: Yeah, I beat her home.

PRYOR: You beat her home.

MCMATH: Yeah, but anyway...

PRYOR: That is a great story.

MCMATH: ...she sent me back to school.

PRYOR: Tell the people where Bussey is.

MCMATH: Well, Bussey is, it's west of Magnolia.

PRYOR: It's in Columbia County.

MCMATH: Yeah, in Columbia County about ten (10) miles and then Taylor is south of Bussey and the little town is still there and the house that I lived in is still there. I was in there not long ago.

PRYOR: And also tell a story about you when you were growing up that the only way you could get from Magnolia to Taylor, which was to ride a horse.

MCMATH: Yeah.
MCMATH: The roads were so bad. You said, if I ever get to become Governor, I'm going to pave this road some day and sure enough you did.

MCMATH: That's right.

PRYOR: You did it when you were Governor.

MCMATH: When I was campaigning for Governor, I went down to Taylor and the road was so bad I had to ride my horse, rode my horse down there and, of course, you know, the newspaper people go along, they usually are, I said, "If I'm elected Governor, this is going to be the first to pave."

PRYOR: And I think that was too.

MCMATH: Yeah.

PRYOR: We won't go in to the Governor's years yet but when you did become Governor, and speaking of rural communities like Taylor and Bussey, Smackover and others, I understand that when you became Governor there were eight (8) counties in our State that didn't have a mile of paved roads. Well, we're going to talk about that in just a moment. Let's move on to Hot Springs now. You're in the school system and you become sort of, you enjoyed debating and speech classes and you participated in some competitive speaking I believe here and there and did you have a teacher maybe that inspired you in this field?

MCMATH: Well, one of the greatest things that happened to me in my was our move to Hot Springs. They had an excellent school and Hot Springs is a cosmopolitan place. You met people from all different places and backgrounds and so forth and people came there from all over the world and, of course, you talk about working, I did all kinds of work in Hot Springs as a youngster. And I went to high school there.
PRYOR: And if I'm not mistaken you went to the Hot Springs High School and this particular high school has two (2) very, very famous graduates. One being Sidney Sanders McMath and the other is William Jefferson Clinton.

MCMATH: Right.

PRYOR: So, there must be something in the water there.

MCMATH: They had some dedicated teachers.

PRYOR: Dedicated teachers.

MCMATH: And one of the teachers that we had was a music teacher, Elizabeth Bow, Elizabeth Bow. She was a excellent music teacher and she had a glee club and I signed up with the music department because there was so many girls in that class, very attractive girls. So, I thought I'd join the glee club and so she cast me in a musical and, of course we used the student body as a captive audience, you know, for try-outs, for rehearsals and so forth. And, so this was the rehearsal before the show, the night before the show and it came time for me to go center stage and sing my song. Well, I couldn't hit a note. I couldn't hit a note and I talked the song.

PRYOR: You talked through the song.

MCMATH: Yeah. Well, needless to say Ms. Bow got me out of her class and put me in the speech class, Lois Alexander, a great dramatic coach and speech teacher and so forth and so she encouraged me and she put me in a debate. We were going to, she told me one day, she said you're going to enter the debate down at the district meeting down at Ouachita and you'll have so and so as your partner and this is the subject and so forth. And I told her, well, I didn't think I could do that. She said, "You're going to do it or else." So, I did it and we won second place.

PRYOR: Wonderful.

MVMATH: And the fact that there were only two (2) entries and then then she gave me a declamation to enter in to the academic debate and it was in Little Rock and I remember the name of the oration. It was All Embracing America by Congressman William D. Upshaw. And so, I did that and then she put me in a one act play and it was the Valiant and again we used the student body as an audience. We just punished them to no end and so, some several years ago we had a class reunion and I talked to the group. I asked them, I said, "How many of you remember the Valiant?" All their went up and I said, "Well, now how many of you remember the closing lines?" And in unison, they said, "Cowards die many times before their death but the Valiant, they taste death only once."

PRYOR: That makes chill bumps.

MCMATH: So, when I went to the University of Arkansas I had two (2) things on my mind, military and politics.

PRYOR: Right.

MCMATH: So, I kind of divided it.

PRYOR: You left Hot Springs High School and went for a period to Henderson.

MCMATH: Yeah. Well, that was two (2) terms. Yeah, Henderson Brown at that time, that's right..

PRYOR: Probably a Methodist school and, of course, now it is Henderson University, Henderson State University.

MCMATH: Well, now I went to Henderson, Henderson State for part of the time and they gave me a job and I went down there in order to prepare myself for a written examination to the Naval Academy. There was a Chief of Police, the National Park Police in Hot Springs, Richard L. Gaffney, and he had a Scout troop that I was a member of, the third Boy Scout troop in Hot Springs and he had a Boys Club and he was an unofficial recruiter for the Marine Corps. The Marine Corp was involved in Nicaragua at the time and he had all of these recruiting posters about the Marine Corp, see, and so forth. So, I got the idea I wanted to be a Marine and he gave me these posters and I painted my room with them. Well, he thought it would be a good idea if I went to the Naval Academy. So, Congressman D. D. Glover, a great man, a wonderful family.

PRYOR: From Malvern, I believe.

MCMATH: From Malvern, a wonderful family, gave an appointment to the Naval Academy. So, I went down to Henderson to kind of prep out on it and there's a wonderful lady down there that tried to help me with my math. You see, when I was in high school, when I got involved in dramatics, I neglected my science and math. See? So, it caught up with me.

PRYOR: Right.

MCMATH: So, when I took my examination for the Naval Academy, I flunked it. I flunked it.

PRYOR: Because of the math. Or rather the lack of math.

MCMATH: Yeah, the lack of math. So, I saddled up and I went to the University of Arkansas and I signed up with the Reserve Officers Corp, you know, for a four (4) year tour and then I took my pre-law. And so I was involved in dramatics and the military and getting ready to go to law school at the University of Arkansas.

PRYOR: So, you went on to the University for some under-graduate work.

MCMATH: Yeah.

PRYOR: And then you went to the law school at the University of Arkansas.

MCMATH: That's right.

PRYOR: By that time you'd had some drama. You'd been in some plays. You were in debate and speech and all of this seemed to be very good preparation for ultimately your two (2) careers, political, well, three (3) careers, the military, politics and law.

MCMATH: That's right.

PRYOR: And I think that's a grand, grand background for those professions.

MCMATH: I had a problem. I got the commission with the Marine Corp because they gave one (1) commission from each land grant college to the Marine Corp. Well, I got that but I had to complete my ROTC training camp in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. And I had to go to law school to get my law degree that summer to get my law degree. Well, the problem was that the first four (4) weeks, they ran simultaneously. The ROTC camp was at Fort Leavenworth. Of course, the law school was at Fayetteville. So, how was I going to do both? So, I had to scoot. So, I signed up in to law school. I put on my ROTC uniform and hitch-hiked to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Signed up there, spent a week, hitch-hiked back to Fayetteville, spent a week and back and forth for four (4) weeks. They never missed me at either place.

PRYOR: I'll declare. That's a wonderful story. That's a great story.

MCMATH: So, I got my commission in the Marine Corp and I got my law degree.

PRYOR: During this time, Governor, way back in the back of your mind, here you were, you were involved in your law school training and going to school and your ROTC, did you have politics in your mind? Did you think about politics? Did you think about some day running for an office.

MCMATH: Well, I thought about running for Governor when I was in high school and I was president of my freshman, sophomore, junior and senior classes and then, of course, at the University, I was president of the student body. So, I had it in my mind and, of course, to be in the military and to be in politics and to be a lawyer, and, you know, you don't know how you're going to work it in.

PRYOR: That's right.

MCMATH: And so I went in the Marine Corp and spent a year, 1936 and came home in '37. I came home to marry Elaine Brockington and at that time the Marine Corp, its' policy was that if you were a Second Lieutenant you couldn't married. You had to be in the Marine Corp two (2) years before you could get married and the policy that if the Marine Corp wanted you to have a bride they'd issue you one. So, I went on to marry Elaine and to practice law but that was in '37 and the paint of my shingle hadn't got dry and, of course the war began and I felt an obligation to go back in.

PRYOR: So, you actually went back in the Marine right before, a year before Pearl Harbor.

MCMATH: Yeah, that's right.

PRYOR: You went back August, 1940.

MCMATH: Yeah, August, 1940. I stayed in the Marine Corp until the war was over.

PRYOR:Right. Okay.