SIDNEY McMATH - DAVID PRYOR
DAVID PRYOR: Well, Governor, there's one more race, one more race that I'd like to bring up, if you don't mind, and that is the race, I believe it was 1962. You had hired Orval E. Faubus in your administration. He was involved with the Highway Department. He had become Governor elected in 1954 upsetting Francis Cherry, I might add, and it comes 1962 and you said you think you'll just take on your old former employee, Orval E. Faubus. By that time he had acquired and assimilated an enormous power base and he had appointed, I guess, every Board Member, every Commission Appointee in the State had been his. In 1962 you challenged Orval Faubus for Governor. What was going on in your mind? What was your motivation? And let's talk about that race just a moment.
SIDNEY McMATH: Well, I gave that a lot of consideration. Of course, in the main I'd be running against people who had been my support. See? Against an organization that I helped build and I understood the difficulties and again, that may have been a mistake, to make that race, because of the formable opposition and the issue that was so paramount in the peoples' mind but I wanted to make a statement and I made that race in order to make a statement. I thought our leadership was going in the wrong direction at the wrong time and I made that statement. I was defeated and that was the reason I made it and I did the best I could. I ran as hard a race as I could but I didn't have enough votes in the ballot box.
DAVID: Well, you sure were up against a massive amount of fire power with Orval Faubus at that time because he was probably at the peak of his power. By 1962 he had gotten through the integration crisis and all of that business but he had built an enormous power base probably unlike any other Governor we've ever had.
SID: If it's any consolation I have a feeling at least I've been vindicated by history.
DAVID: Uh-huh. I think people will agree to that. I certainly do. Governor, I want to go back – we have one thing in common. Both of us had been defeated by John L. McClellan.
SID: Yes.
DAVID: Senator McClellan.
SID: Right.
DAVID: And when you said there was a race that you might not should have run when you thought about making that race for a third term. Maybe that was a race I should not have run in 1972 but I did and looking back on I don't have a lot of regrets. Things have worked out great for me.
SID: Well, that made a base for you.
DAVID: It's just been wonderful, people have been wonderful to me and very, very tolerant of me for all of these years but Governor…
SID: Well, let me say this right here, David, there's nobody in politics past or present that has more loyal friends and supporters of David Pryor.
DAVID: Well, that's very, very kind of you especially...
SID: I say that from my heart.
DAVID: …coming from Sidney McMath. Thank you very, very much. I appreciate you saying that. You almost defeated John McClellan in 1954. Now, that was a razor-edge…
SID: That's right.
DAVID: …razor-close, I should say, race. A lot of people say that in certain counties you were counted out and I don't know that to be the case. I don't know whether that's true or false but you surely almost won that race.
SID: Well, you know, it'd look like sour grapes or a poor loser if you say, well, I was counted out because they cheated and so forth but there was two (2) or three (3) counties in Eastern Arkansas where people that I had relied on in the past, had been for me, they went the other way at the last minute and it made a difference in the race.
DAVID: That's right. Speaking of "sour grapes", a lot of times and I know many, many more have come to you than they've ever come to me but many times young people come to me and they say, "David, tell us, we're interested in running for office. Tell us what we should do. Tell us how we run. How do we choose a campaign manager or a slogan? What should be our message?" I said, "Listen, there's no secret to this." There's one thing that I tell everybody, I said, "Be prepared to lose. Hopefully you're going to win but be prepared to lose and if you lose, be a good loser. Because people in Arkansas watch how you lose, I think, much more closely than how you win. And you have always been a magnanimous, gracious politician in victory and defeat.
SID: Thank you.
DAVID: And I think people have always admired that in you and you have risen above whatever degree of hurt you might be having in your own self and soul and heart at the moment.
SID: Thank you. You mentioned about young people…
DAVID: Yes.
SID: …getting into politics. You know, I think you would agree with me in saying that first they have to have a motive, the right motivation, a passion to accomplish something, that they're willing to go out and pay the price of being a politician.
DAVID: There is a price to pay.
SID: In order to accomplish that one thing.
DAVID: There's a price to pay.
SID: And you have to be willing to fight for that whether or not at the time it might be politically correct, the thing to do but a quotation somewhere in my mind is about motivation, it goes about motivation, if I can remember it. "The right motive gives pinions to thought and freedom and strength to speech and action." You have the right motive, otherwise don't get in.
DAVID: That is fabulous. Now, I'd like to conclude on a story and I brought it up earlier in our conversation because you had mentioned "dogs" two (2) times, various dogs. Now, I want to know the story of Old Red. I remember, in growing up, I heard about Old Red at the Governor's Mansion. Now, tell us that story one more time.
SID: Well, I'll tell you what. Old Red was a great dog.
DAVID: Was Old Red from Grant County?
SID: No.
DAVID: No.
SID: He was up from, let's see. Up in Northwest Arkansas, just below Sebastian County, just before Fort Smith.
DAVID: Maybe even in Van Buren or up in there?
SID: Yeah, that's right. That's right. They were having a road opening dedication and they invited me up to cut the ribbon. And so I cut the ribbon and those coon hunters up there knew that I was a coon hunter. See? My boys and I hunted coons down on my farm and so forth. So, they made a great ceremony out of giving me Old Red and so I took Old Red home with me and he was there at the Mansion and we were feeding him out of the Governor's fund and so forth. And there was a newspaper reporter in North Little Rock took up the issue and accused me of misusing the Governor's funds, the operating funds to feed my dog. Feeding him so forth and so forth. Well, my response was that Old Red had replaced one (1) State Trooper as a guard at the Mansion. And since he was working for the State, I thought it was only fair that he fed by the State.
DAVID: Be fed by the State. What a fair compromise. And I think you prevailed in that argument there
SID: Prevailed in that argument, that's right.
DAVID: That's one of the great stories. Well, here we have, we've talked about the Med Center. We'd talked about the Highway Program. We've talked about the Rural Electrification that you have felt so passionately about but probably the most passionate that you've become is when you talk about education of our young people and I don't think I know of any Governor in history that has done more for education than Sidney Sanders McMath. Talk about that just a moment.
SID: Well, of course, as I mentioned earlier, I have felt with a passion that every child is entitled to an opportunity for an education, find his talents, hone his skills and be a good citizen, a productive citizen, and I, as Governor, tried to appropriate more money for public education. I helped in consolidating the schools from some 1700 to around 300 and something and I advanced the program at the AM&N College in Pine Bluff, the one for the black people and so, as I say, it was one of my passions and I tried to further that while I was in office.
DAVID: Well, the late Daisy Bates, many, many times would say in her speeches and her admonitions to young people and in reviewing her life that those who are not educated are not free.
SID: Sure, I agree.
DAVID: And I think that is true and I think you have believe that.
SID: Correct.
DAVID: For these many years. Governor, let me say that this State is better off today because of you, sir, what an honor it has been for me to visited with you during this program on AETN.
SID: Thank you.
DAVID: We're very, very proud that this is the first in a series and we couldn't have gone any higher to begin and to inaugurate this series.
SID: Thank you, David. I appreciate it very much.
DAVID: Thank you, sir.
TRANSCRIBED BY:
PATSY BILLINGS
8308 KEATS DRIVE
LITTLE ROCK, AR 72209
501-562-5267
email: billings@sitemall.net
Showing posts with label Ben Laney Mentions. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Ben Laney Mentions. Show all posts
Thursday, September 13, 2007
SIDNEY McMATH - DAVID PRYOR transcript four
SIDNEY McMATH - DAVID PRYOR
DAVID PRYOR: Governor, speaking of the integration crisis and the development of rural electrification and the public school system that you so strongly supported with great passion and the Medical Center, I've always associated two (2) people with you. Two (2) people who are still very prominent in Arkansas. One of those persons is Judge Henry Woods. The other is Leland Leatherman. These gentlemen became your law partners but yet early on in your career, they were your friends and mentors and advisors and if you don't mind, I've heard a story about you and Judge Henry Woods. This was many years ago when you were thinking about running for Governor and I believe Henry Woods may have come to Hot Springs, an avid President of the Young Democrats and you're trying to find somebody to manage your campaign. Do you mind sharing that with me?
SIDNEY McMATH: I remember that. Of course, Henry and I have been friends seemingly forever. His mother and my mother were friends. His sister, who was much older than Henry and my mother were friends and we both graduated from Hot Springs High School. Of course, I was ahead of Henry probably about four (4) years but when I was elected Prosecuting Attorney in 1948, of course, there was speculation about me running for Governor. And Henry, at that time was practicing law in Texarkana. And he was the President of the Young Democrats and he came over to see me in about any way he could help me in the campaign. And I said, "Well, I'd like you to be my campaign manager." Of course, being the President of the Young Democrat, well naturally as big of an organization that they were, a live-wire organization back then.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: They were well organized and active back then, probably more so than the Democratic Party.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: And so, I said, "Would you be my campaign manager?" He said, "Well", he says, "How much money do you have?" I said, "Well, I've got $1,500.00 cash and I've got $1,500.00 promised." He said, "We can win on that."
PRYOR: That's the power of positive thinking.
MCMATH: Can you imagine starting off a campaign with $1,500.00 cash and $1,500.00 promised?
PRYOR: Oh, my goodness. That wouldn't pay your filing fee. It wouldn't pay for one (1) 30 second TV.
MCMATH: Well, Henry stayed with me in every campaign I've ever been in and he was my right-hand man when I was Governor.
PRYOR: He's a real thinker, isn't he?
MCMATH: And you talk about Leland.
PRYOR: Leland Leatherman.
MCMATH: Leland, he was my good friend in Hot Springs and it's always been when I needed him and when I left the office when the good people of Arkansas retired me in '53, Henry and Leland and I opened up a law office and we practiced together for some 25 years until Henry went on the bench. And David, we did it all on a handshake. No written contract. We've never had a cross-word or an argument about a fee division or anything else. It was a perfect relationship.
PRYOR: That's great.
MCMATH: And of course, when Henry went on the Court as the United States District Judge, he had the segregation cases arising out of Pulaski County and so forth. And in his early decision he held that the school districts in Pulaski County should be consolidated. See? And of course, in 1948 one of my objectives after I was nominated, after I was elected, we wanted to consolidate the schools. There were too many of them, some 700 school districts. So, we supported that Bill to raise the millage 18 mill limit on schools and also to consolidate the schools reducing them from 1700 something to around 1500. See? And it's still too many. We shouldn't have more than, certainly more than one (1) school district per county. But anyway, Henry believed strongly that these school districts in Pulaski County should be consolidated and he so held but the 8th Circuit Court of Appeal didn't agree with him and he was reversed. But you can imagine the time and money and energy that could have been saved instead of it all being in the court room and this emotional effort of integration and segregation and so forth had been put in the classrooms. See? And so he was correct about that and had a lot of vision and a lot of foresight and a lot of courage. And then on the race issue, in 1948, in September of '48 when they changed the rules of the Democratic Party to let blacks in to the party, Henry led the floor fight.
PRYOR: It was at the State Democratic Convention.
MCMATH: State Democratic Convention down at Robinson Auditorium in September of 1948. So, we got this Bill introduced and Henry led the fore fight to get it passed. See?
PRYOR: But you had done a lot of state work before. You had worked a lot of people.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: That could have been a very explosive moment for the State Democratic Party.
MCMATH: Yeah, we did a lot of ground work on that before we went to the convention.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: We had the leaders there and so forth and we tried to point out to them the direction we should be going.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: Now, you know, it's so basic. You know, when you go back to the Declaration of Independence, our forefathers were inspired that all men are created equal. Well, if they're created equal, they should have an equal opportunity to find their talents, to hone their skills, to be competitive, to be good citizens. See? And then the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States. "We the people of the United States in order to form a more perfect union establish justice." Justice requires that everybody be treated equally, that everybody be given an equal opportunity in this land. See? That's why so many people want to come to this world. You know, they're beating down the doors to get in to the United States because of the freedom. And, of course, that's another thing about the '57 incident. See, that gave the wrong impression. See? That flag stands for freedom. Run that flag up to the top of the pole, people say that stands for freedom for every man, woman and child. See? And so, Henry, he's a great Judge and he was a good friend and Leland, when we began practicing law together, he took the attorney job representing all rural electric cooperatives. So, we maintained our relationship with rural electric coop.
PRYOR: Well, now speaking of a real visionary, Leland Leathererman, in my mind, is truly an Arkansas visionary.He saw there was so much earlier than the rest of us did. You've always had a great impact on, not only have they had a impact on you and the young men of Arkansas coming up, but you had an impact on them and vice versa but one...
MCMATH: A perfect relationship.
PRYOR: One of those young men that we've not mentioned that you've touched early in his life, was a young bond salesman, a young financier by the name of Jack Stephens in Little Rock and you, if I'm not mistaken, he became the youngest member of the University of Arkansas Board of Trustees and you appointed him.
MCMATH: That's correct, David. Jack and I became acquainted early in the campaign and he supported me, I guess, in every election I ever ran, certainly in the early days and I thought he would be a great service on the University of Arkansas Board of Trustees because he and I had a shared philosophy about educational opportunities for everybody, you know. And Jack was on the Board for, I guess, ten (10) years and did an outstanding job.
PRYOR: He certainly did. And let me put in a plug, if I might, Jack Stephens today is a primary supporter of this program that we're initiating to teach Arkansas history in our school systems.
MCMATH: I'm proud to know that.
PRYOR: And we had a seminar not too long ago in Fayetteville and we brought 50 Arkansas teachers there to teach them how to teach Arkansas history and to teach other teachers how to teach Arkansas history and he was a very, very generous financial supporter of that cause and remains so to this day. He's done a wonderful thing in all of these years but in recent years what he's done with the Arts Center and many, many other causes.
MCMATH: Well, that's an indication of his vision and his willingness to be a public servant.
PRYOR: That is correct. Well, Governor, Henry Woods and Leland Leathererman and Jack Stephens and all of these people that you have watched in your productive life, and by the way here you are, two (2) more years you're going to be 90 and you still have passion. You are known basically as a winner but you did not always win. Let's talk about that election, if we could, and we won't go in to it in great detail of 1952. By the way, I lost a race one time and still, I don't know, I think I've won nine (9) or ten (10) races or 15 or so. I've been on a lot of ballots but I lost one one time to John L. McClellan in 1972. Still in the grocery store people say, "David, I'm going to tell you why you lost that race in 1972." They don't talk about the ones that I may have won but they talk about that one that I lost. You lost one in 1952 and it was a big blow. Tell us about that.
MCMATH: Well, the '53 race, when I ran for the third term, I shouldn't have run.
PRYOR: '53 or '52?
MCMATH: '52. The '52 race, yeah, '52. It was a new term again.
PRYOR: Okay. I see. Right.
MCMATH: I should not have made that race. See? The power aligned against me was just overwhelming. See?
PRYOR: You had taken on a lot of groups.
MCMATH: Oh, man, yeah. You know, they said that they had the highway audit thing. See? And that was spectacular, used, and they held it until the beginning of the race in 1952 in the spring by releasing all of these charges about my administration.
PRYOR: And let me say this. Ultimately no wrongdoings were found.
MCMATH: And three (3) Grand Jury went through this business. And the Chairman of the Highway Audit Commission was a member of the Board of Directors of Arkansas Power and Light Company. On each of the Grand Juries, they were either members of the Arkansas Power and Light Company Board of Directors or representatives. See? So, and so then in the second Grand Jury, they had private funds to hire a private prosecutor to see that, you know, everything was covered and then the opportunities to get an indictment were passed over. Well, after three (3) Grand Juries in succession, they came up with two (2) indictments of the highway employees and the first indictment was thrown out by the Trial Judge for lack of evidence and the second trial went to the jury and the jury was out four (4) minutes and returned a verdict of not guilty for that particular defendant and all of that was a result of the highway audit.
PRYOR: But your attention and your focus and your resources of energy were focused on this episode. I mean, you were consumed with this.
MCMATH: And of course, you know, it's hard to defeat the allegation.
PRYOR: Sure.
MCMATH: To defeat the allegation. See? You've got a Blue Ribbon Grand Jury coming out with all of these charges and so forth. The first Grand Jury found no indictments but two (2) members of the Grand Jury were associated with the Arkansas Power and Light made a dissent. There were a lot of statements about, well, they should have been indicted and so forth, putting so much heat on the Judge that he called another Grand Jury and that was the one that they hired private prosecutor and the Prosecuting Attorney, the regular Prosecuting Attorney didn't know anything about it and the Judge didn't know anything about it. When he found out, he dismissed that Grand Jury and then they called the third one and then they came up with the two indictments.
PRYOR: There were a lot of people in that campaign and I guess in '52 that was the race that Francis Cherry of Jonesboro ultimately won.
MCMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: He had, as we call it, a "gimmick" that worked that year and that was, of course, the talk-a-thon. Do you remember his talk-a-thon?
MCMATH: Yeah, I sure do. Yeah, that was Francis. He was a Chancellor. We were in law school at the same time. We ran on the same ticket for when I ran for President of the Student Body, he ran for President of the senior class. We were on the same ticket. See? And so, I've always known Francis but he's a Chancellor.
PRYOR: Sure.
MCMATH: And Judicial and so forth. The President of the Arkansas Power and Light Company was against me at that time naturally. He saw, he came up with this talk-a-thon because a candidate in Florida had used it and had won and it was a natural for Francis. So, he prevailed on Francis to use it and it was great for him. See? You had to call in, you know, and you have people call in and ask questions about me.
PRYOR: Oh, yeah, he would on those little radio stations for hours and hours as long as people would drive up and give the money to the station owner or manager. They'd bring cherry pies, and the cherry ice cream and all of that business.
MCMATH: He's the one that Orval beat for a second term.
PRYOR: That is correct. So, a few years later...
MCMATH: And again, there were several interesting characters in there. One was a former Judge and Prosecuting Attorney. See? And another was a former Congressman and they were all from different parts of the state and another one at the time or would be Attorney General.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: And so, the Arkansas Power and Light Company had each of the headquarters. So, when I was eliminated in the July primary. I mean, when I was second in the July primary, no, I lead the ticket in the July primary and so Francis and I went in the run-off. Well, they all joined, all of them and our senior Senator and the President of Arkansas Power and Light Company gathered in Jonesboro and endorsed Francis. See? And so, I was defeated and as I say, I shouldn't even raced.
PRYOR: Well, you didn't stay out of politics very long. You still had, you're still that fire horse and you still had that passion in you. You wanted to do something. So, the thing you did is two (2) years later, you ran, not for Governor again, but you challenged John L. McClellan. Senator John L. McClellan in 1954.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: And this was kind of at the peak of the Joe McCarthy era.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: And you took on John L. McClellan. Talk about that race a little bit.
MCMATH: Well, in the first place John McClellan and I had been good friends. I campaigned for him when he was first elected for Congress. See? And, but we got cross-wise because of the power issue, you know, and he was against President Truman's program. See? So, I ran against him in 1954 and was defeated. That was, at the time of the McCarthy era and this is, I think is a little interesting antecdote. McCarthy was running for re-election at the time Eisenhower was running for President and they were on a joint program in Minnesota. And McCarthy had been accusing General Marshall of being a Communist. Well, President Truman revered General Marshall was one of the great generals we've ever had. See? And so, of course, he took exception to that but Marshall, he would have been the Commander of the Forces in Europe except he was needed by Roosevelt and he was needed by Truman. Anyway, President, General Eisenhower and Senator McCarthy were on the same platform in Minnesota and McCarthy had been attacking General Marshall and the candidate for President, General Eisenhower was going to respond that he made that attack on this particular occasion. Well, General Eisenhower listened to McCarthy make his tirade among, he's running against everybody and his accusations against General Marshall and when General Eisenhower made his talk, he didn't say anything on behalf of General Marshall. He didn't take exception to McCarthy.
PRYOR: Did not defend him.
MCMATH: Did not defend him. Well, President Truman did not like that. He did not like that and when President Truman was going out of office and General Eisenhower was coming in as President, you know, the custom is that the incoming President go up to the White House and escort the outgoing President down to the limousine and they ride together out to the Capitol for the swearing in ceremonies. Well, General Eisenhower didn't get out of the car and he didn't get out and open up the door for the President to come in. Well, of course, President Truman didn't like that. He didn't care what you thought or did to Truman but he revered the Presidency. See? And so on the way out, things were kind of tight and...
PRYOR: To say the least.
MCMATH: Yeah. General Eisenhower said, Mr. President, he said, "I want to tell you for a long time why I wasn't at your inauguration." He said, "Well, you know, that was your day and I didn't want to interfere with your inauguration and your day to take publicity away from you on that day." And the President Truman thought about that for a minute and he said, "General, do you know why you weren't at my inauguration?" He said, "By cracky I didn't send for you."
PRYOR: Wow. That was tough stuff, wasn't it?
MCMATH: Eisenhower was the Commander of the NATO Forces at that time.
PRYOR: Wow. Well, do you remember, I never will forget, we were in high school at this time when Harry Truman fired Douglas MacArthur, General MacArthur and our whole school got to listen on the intercom to that address and then it came out in 45 rpms, that address that old soldiers never die, they just fade away. And I committed great hunks of that speech to memory and shortly after that I became a Page in the Congress and I used to think about that great, some of those great, not only his speech but that was one of the great orations ever delivered to the Congress.
MCMATH: Of course, MacArthur was a great General, there's no question of that. But he had some conflicts with President Truman on foreign policy. President Truman was trying in the worst way to keep from getting into a III World War. See? See, the Russians had gone in and trained the north Koreans and equipmented them and then the Chinese came across the Yaloo in November of 1950 and it looked like we were going to get involved with China and are troops were being driven out of south Korea and so forth and he had some big decisions to make and Eisenhower, it looked like, I mean General MacArthur was taking issue on the President's foreign policy issues by using the bomb for example, by using Chang Ca Chek and so forth and so President Truman, you know, he made a trip to Wake Island to visit...
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: ...to visit with General MacArthur and get from him his evaluation of the situation and see if they could come to an understanding and the main issue he wanted, the main question he wanted answered is whether the Chinese are going to come in. See? And those Marines up around Choce Reservior and were making contacted the Chinese patrol. But General MacArthur assured him that, well, he says, "All this commotion about the Chinese coming in, their statements they've made, that they're not going to come in to this war." And so, President Truman went home and he hadn't been in the Oval Office very long and so the Chinese forged on, the armies were coming across the Yaloo and of course, things deteriorated and of course, he had to release MacArthur and of course, he had the advice of General Marshall and the Chiefs of Staff and so forth. They had problems with him.
PRYOR: That was a momentous time in our country's history and MacArthur was almost God-like figure there.
MCMATH: He was God-like. He was running for President.
PRYOR: Yeah, he did run for President. By the way in 1954, a little tid bit of history, we're talking about some of those campaigns. I believe it was in September of '54, that Joe McCarthy was censored by the United States Senate. A censor came down against him. In the war, in World War II, I've heard you speak of this often and I know that you feel very strongly about it and you've probably developed an expertise in this field that no one knows much about. Tell us about Bauxite, Arkansas in Saline County, very briefly, and its contribution to the World War II war effort if you would.
MCMATH: David...
PRYOR: Very few people know about it.
MCMATH: David, I appreciate you asking me that question. You talk about history. This is a dramatic chapter in the history of Arkansas and the history of the country nobody knows about. That the average person doesn't know anything about it. You know, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt announced to the world that we're going to build 100,000 airplanes. Well, you have to have aluminum to build airplanes and the experts didn't think that he could do it, that we could do it. Hitler didn't think we could do because at that time the bauxite that we were using was coming from South America and the Nazi naval blockade had sunk these ships bringing up bauxite and at one time, I mean, blockaded the South Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico and so we weren't getting that source of bauxite. And Alcoa had had a very conservative policy of conserving their resources for the future. See? So, they were using this South America bauxite. Well, Roosevelt knew something that the experts didn't know and that Hitler didn't know. He knew about Bauxite, Arkansas. 95% of the bauxite in North America was in Bauxite, Arkansas and he knew about the people that would be called upon to go in and dig it out. The people at Bauxite and central Arkansas went in and worked around the clock to dig out that bauxite and aluminum was produced and planes were built and battles were fought and victories won and the 8th Air Force, we just observed "D" Day on June the 6th. They had a mission and that mission after they made the landing was to prevent Rommel and three (3) crack Nazi divisions from launching a counter attack against our beachhead. Well, Rommel had his divisions ready but he was waiting for orders from Hitler and Hitler was asleep and nobody would even wake him up. And when he got the orders it was too late because the 8th Air Force had destroyed the lines of communication, the railroads, the highways and so forth leading down to the beaches and so the Nazi troopers never got there and the planes that the 8th Air Force was flying were made from aluminum mined out from Bauxite, Arkansas.
PRYOR: What a great story.
MCMATH: Isn't that a great story? It is a thrilling story. Bauxite was mined to make that aluminum.
PRYOR: One, I think was developed, has developed to this as a story and once again it's a great part.
MCMATH: And to say this about Alcoa, it's a great company. You know, they just scarred the earth down there to meet the defense demand. If you'd flown over it, it looked like Mars or the moon but do you know what they're doing? They're working with the Game and Fish Commission to rehabilitate that land and restore it to its natural state and turn it all into state parks.
PRYOR: That's great. That's just great. Now, here you are, you're practicing law. You're out of office. You've run against....
DAVID PRYOR: Governor, speaking of the integration crisis and the development of rural electrification and the public school system that you so strongly supported with great passion and the Medical Center, I've always associated two (2) people with you. Two (2) people who are still very prominent in Arkansas. One of those persons is Judge Henry Woods. The other is Leland Leatherman. These gentlemen became your law partners but yet early on in your career, they were your friends and mentors and advisors and if you don't mind, I've heard a story about you and Judge Henry Woods. This was many years ago when you were thinking about running for Governor and I believe Henry Woods may have come to Hot Springs, an avid President of the Young Democrats and you're trying to find somebody to manage your campaign. Do you mind sharing that with me?
SIDNEY McMATH: I remember that. Of course, Henry and I have been friends seemingly forever. His mother and my mother were friends. His sister, who was much older than Henry and my mother were friends and we both graduated from Hot Springs High School. Of course, I was ahead of Henry probably about four (4) years but when I was elected Prosecuting Attorney in 1948, of course, there was speculation about me running for Governor. And Henry, at that time was practicing law in Texarkana. And he was the President of the Young Democrats and he came over to see me in about any way he could help me in the campaign. And I said, "Well, I'd like you to be my campaign manager." Of course, being the President of the Young Democrat, well naturally as big of an organization that they were, a live-wire organization back then.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: They were well organized and active back then, probably more so than the Democratic Party.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: And so, I said, "Would you be my campaign manager?" He said, "Well", he says, "How much money do you have?" I said, "Well, I've got $1,500.00 cash and I've got $1,500.00 promised." He said, "We can win on that."
PRYOR: That's the power of positive thinking.
MCMATH: Can you imagine starting off a campaign with $1,500.00 cash and $1,500.00 promised?
PRYOR: Oh, my goodness. That wouldn't pay your filing fee. It wouldn't pay for one (1) 30 second TV.
MCMATH: Well, Henry stayed with me in every campaign I've ever been in and he was my right-hand man when I was Governor.
PRYOR: He's a real thinker, isn't he?
MCMATH: And you talk about Leland.
PRYOR: Leland Leatherman.
MCMATH: Leland, he was my good friend in Hot Springs and it's always been when I needed him and when I left the office when the good people of Arkansas retired me in '53, Henry and Leland and I opened up a law office and we practiced together for some 25 years until Henry went on the bench. And David, we did it all on a handshake. No written contract. We've never had a cross-word or an argument about a fee division or anything else. It was a perfect relationship.
PRYOR: That's great.
MCMATH: And of course, when Henry went on the Court as the United States District Judge, he had the segregation cases arising out of Pulaski County and so forth. And in his early decision he held that the school districts in Pulaski County should be consolidated. See? And of course, in 1948 one of my objectives after I was nominated, after I was elected, we wanted to consolidate the schools. There were too many of them, some 700 school districts. So, we supported that Bill to raise the millage 18 mill limit on schools and also to consolidate the schools reducing them from 1700 something to around 1500. See? And it's still too many. We shouldn't have more than, certainly more than one (1) school district per county. But anyway, Henry believed strongly that these school districts in Pulaski County should be consolidated and he so held but the 8th Circuit Court of Appeal didn't agree with him and he was reversed. But you can imagine the time and money and energy that could have been saved instead of it all being in the court room and this emotional effort of integration and segregation and so forth had been put in the classrooms. See? And so he was correct about that and had a lot of vision and a lot of foresight and a lot of courage. And then on the race issue, in 1948, in September of '48 when they changed the rules of the Democratic Party to let blacks in to the party, Henry led the floor fight.
PRYOR: It was at the State Democratic Convention.
MCMATH: State Democratic Convention down at Robinson Auditorium in September of 1948. So, we got this Bill introduced and Henry led the fore fight to get it passed. See?
PRYOR: But you had done a lot of state work before. You had worked a lot of people.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: That could have been a very explosive moment for the State Democratic Party.
MCMATH: Yeah, we did a lot of ground work on that before we went to the convention.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: We had the leaders there and so forth and we tried to point out to them the direction we should be going.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: Now, you know, it's so basic. You know, when you go back to the Declaration of Independence, our forefathers were inspired that all men are created equal. Well, if they're created equal, they should have an equal opportunity to find their talents, to hone their skills, to be competitive, to be good citizens. See? And then the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States. "We the people of the United States in order to form a more perfect union establish justice." Justice requires that everybody be treated equally, that everybody be given an equal opportunity in this land. See? That's why so many people want to come to this world. You know, they're beating down the doors to get in to the United States because of the freedom. And, of course, that's another thing about the '57 incident. See, that gave the wrong impression. See? That flag stands for freedom. Run that flag up to the top of the pole, people say that stands for freedom for every man, woman and child. See? And so, Henry, he's a great Judge and he was a good friend and Leland, when we began practicing law together, he took the attorney job representing all rural electric cooperatives. So, we maintained our relationship with rural electric coop.
PRYOR: Well, now speaking of a real visionary, Leland Leathererman, in my mind, is truly an Arkansas visionary.He saw there was so much earlier than the rest of us did. You've always had a great impact on, not only have they had a impact on you and the young men of Arkansas coming up, but you had an impact on them and vice versa but one...
MCMATH: A perfect relationship.
PRYOR: One of those young men that we've not mentioned that you've touched early in his life, was a young bond salesman, a young financier by the name of Jack Stephens in Little Rock and you, if I'm not mistaken, he became the youngest member of the University of Arkansas Board of Trustees and you appointed him.
MCMATH: That's correct, David. Jack and I became acquainted early in the campaign and he supported me, I guess, in every election I ever ran, certainly in the early days and I thought he would be a great service on the University of Arkansas Board of Trustees because he and I had a shared philosophy about educational opportunities for everybody, you know. And Jack was on the Board for, I guess, ten (10) years and did an outstanding job.
PRYOR: He certainly did. And let me put in a plug, if I might, Jack Stephens today is a primary supporter of this program that we're initiating to teach Arkansas history in our school systems.
MCMATH: I'm proud to know that.
PRYOR: And we had a seminar not too long ago in Fayetteville and we brought 50 Arkansas teachers there to teach them how to teach Arkansas history and to teach other teachers how to teach Arkansas history and he was a very, very generous financial supporter of that cause and remains so to this day. He's done a wonderful thing in all of these years but in recent years what he's done with the Arts Center and many, many other causes.
MCMATH: Well, that's an indication of his vision and his willingness to be a public servant.
PRYOR: That is correct. Well, Governor, Henry Woods and Leland Leathererman and Jack Stephens and all of these people that you have watched in your productive life, and by the way here you are, two (2) more years you're going to be 90 and you still have passion. You are known basically as a winner but you did not always win. Let's talk about that election, if we could, and we won't go in to it in great detail of 1952. By the way, I lost a race one time and still, I don't know, I think I've won nine (9) or ten (10) races or 15 or so. I've been on a lot of ballots but I lost one one time to John L. McClellan in 1972. Still in the grocery store people say, "David, I'm going to tell you why you lost that race in 1972." They don't talk about the ones that I may have won but they talk about that one that I lost. You lost one in 1952 and it was a big blow. Tell us about that.
MCMATH: Well, the '53 race, when I ran for the third term, I shouldn't have run.
PRYOR: '53 or '52?
MCMATH: '52. The '52 race, yeah, '52. It was a new term again.
PRYOR: Okay. I see. Right.
MCMATH: I should not have made that race. See? The power aligned against me was just overwhelming. See?
PRYOR: You had taken on a lot of groups.
MCMATH: Oh, man, yeah. You know, they said that they had the highway audit thing. See? And that was spectacular, used, and they held it until the beginning of the race in 1952 in the spring by releasing all of these charges about my administration.
PRYOR: And let me say this. Ultimately no wrongdoings were found.
MCMATH: And three (3) Grand Jury went through this business. And the Chairman of the Highway Audit Commission was a member of the Board of Directors of Arkansas Power and Light Company. On each of the Grand Juries, they were either members of the Arkansas Power and Light Company Board of Directors or representatives. See? So, and so then in the second Grand Jury, they had private funds to hire a private prosecutor to see that, you know, everything was covered and then the opportunities to get an indictment were passed over. Well, after three (3) Grand Juries in succession, they came up with two (2) indictments of the highway employees and the first indictment was thrown out by the Trial Judge for lack of evidence and the second trial went to the jury and the jury was out four (4) minutes and returned a verdict of not guilty for that particular defendant and all of that was a result of the highway audit.
PRYOR: But your attention and your focus and your resources of energy were focused on this episode. I mean, you were consumed with this.
MCMATH: And of course, you know, it's hard to defeat the allegation.
PRYOR: Sure.
MCMATH: To defeat the allegation. See? You've got a Blue Ribbon Grand Jury coming out with all of these charges and so forth. The first Grand Jury found no indictments but two (2) members of the Grand Jury were associated with the Arkansas Power and Light made a dissent. There were a lot of statements about, well, they should have been indicted and so forth, putting so much heat on the Judge that he called another Grand Jury and that was the one that they hired private prosecutor and the Prosecuting Attorney, the regular Prosecuting Attorney didn't know anything about it and the Judge didn't know anything about it. When he found out, he dismissed that Grand Jury and then they called the third one and then they came up with the two indictments.
PRYOR: There were a lot of people in that campaign and I guess in '52 that was the race that Francis Cherry of Jonesboro ultimately won.
MCMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: He had, as we call it, a "gimmick" that worked that year and that was, of course, the talk-a-thon. Do you remember his talk-a-thon?
MCMATH: Yeah, I sure do. Yeah, that was Francis. He was a Chancellor. We were in law school at the same time. We ran on the same ticket for when I ran for President of the Student Body, he ran for President of the senior class. We were on the same ticket. See? And so, I've always known Francis but he's a Chancellor.
PRYOR: Sure.
MCMATH: And Judicial and so forth. The President of the Arkansas Power and Light Company was against me at that time naturally. He saw, he came up with this talk-a-thon because a candidate in Florida had used it and had won and it was a natural for Francis. So, he prevailed on Francis to use it and it was great for him. See? You had to call in, you know, and you have people call in and ask questions about me.
PRYOR: Oh, yeah, he would on those little radio stations for hours and hours as long as people would drive up and give the money to the station owner or manager. They'd bring cherry pies, and the cherry ice cream and all of that business.
MCMATH: He's the one that Orval beat for a second term.
PRYOR: That is correct. So, a few years later...
MCMATH: And again, there were several interesting characters in there. One was a former Judge and Prosecuting Attorney. See? And another was a former Congressman and they were all from different parts of the state and another one at the time or would be Attorney General.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: And so, the Arkansas Power and Light Company had each of the headquarters. So, when I was eliminated in the July primary. I mean, when I was second in the July primary, no, I lead the ticket in the July primary and so Francis and I went in the run-off. Well, they all joined, all of them and our senior Senator and the President of Arkansas Power and Light Company gathered in Jonesboro and endorsed Francis. See? And so, I was defeated and as I say, I shouldn't even raced.
PRYOR: Well, you didn't stay out of politics very long. You still had, you're still that fire horse and you still had that passion in you. You wanted to do something. So, the thing you did is two (2) years later, you ran, not for Governor again, but you challenged John L. McClellan. Senator John L. McClellan in 1954.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: And this was kind of at the peak of the Joe McCarthy era.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: And you took on John L. McClellan. Talk about that race a little bit.
MCMATH: Well, in the first place John McClellan and I had been good friends. I campaigned for him when he was first elected for Congress. See? And, but we got cross-wise because of the power issue, you know, and he was against President Truman's program. See? So, I ran against him in 1954 and was defeated. That was, at the time of the McCarthy era and this is, I think is a little interesting antecdote. McCarthy was running for re-election at the time Eisenhower was running for President and they were on a joint program in Minnesota. And McCarthy had been accusing General Marshall of being a Communist. Well, President Truman revered General Marshall was one of the great generals we've ever had. See? And so, of course, he took exception to that but Marshall, he would have been the Commander of the Forces in Europe except he was needed by Roosevelt and he was needed by Truman. Anyway, President, General Eisenhower and Senator McCarthy were on the same platform in Minnesota and McCarthy had been attacking General Marshall and the candidate for President, General Eisenhower was going to respond that he made that attack on this particular occasion. Well, General Eisenhower listened to McCarthy make his tirade among, he's running against everybody and his accusations against General Marshall and when General Eisenhower made his talk, he didn't say anything on behalf of General Marshall. He didn't take exception to McCarthy.
PRYOR: Did not defend him.
MCMATH: Did not defend him. Well, President Truman did not like that. He did not like that and when President Truman was going out of office and General Eisenhower was coming in as President, you know, the custom is that the incoming President go up to the White House and escort the outgoing President down to the limousine and they ride together out to the Capitol for the swearing in ceremonies. Well, General Eisenhower didn't get out of the car and he didn't get out and open up the door for the President to come in. Well, of course, President Truman didn't like that. He didn't care what you thought or did to Truman but he revered the Presidency. See? And so on the way out, things were kind of tight and...
PRYOR: To say the least.
MCMATH: Yeah. General Eisenhower said, Mr. President, he said, "I want to tell you for a long time why I wasn't at your inauguration." He said, "Well, you know, that was your day and I didn't want to interfere with your inauguration and your day to take publicity away from you on that day." And the President Truman thought about that for a minute and he said, "General, do you know why you weren't at my inauguration?" He said, "By cracky I didn't send for you."
PRYOR: Wow. That was tough stuff, wasn't it?
MCMATH: Eisenhower was the Commander of the NATO Forces at that time.
PRYOR: Wow. Well, do you remember, I never will forget, we were in high school at this time when Harry Truman fired Douglas MacArthur, General MacArthur and our whole school got to listen on the intercom to that address and then it came out in 45 rpms, that address that old soldiers never die, they just fade away. And I committed great hunks of that speech to memory and shortly after that I became a Page in the Congress and I used to think about that great, some of those great, not only his speech but that was one of the great orations ever delivered to the Congress.
MCMATH: Of course, MacArthur was a great General, there's no question of that. But he had some conflicts with President Truman on foreign policy. President Truman was trying in the worst way to keep from getting into a III World War. See? See, the Russians had gone in and trained the north Koreans and equipmented them and then the Chinese came across the Yaloo in November of 1950 and it looked like we were going to get involved with China and are troops were being driven out of south Korea and so forth and he had some big decisions to make and Eisenhower, it looked like, I mean General MacArthur was taking issue on the President's foreign policy issues by using the bomb for example, by using Chang Ca Chek and so forth and so President Truman, you know, he made a trip to Wake Island to visit...
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: ...to visit with General MacArthur and get from him his evaluation of the situation and see if they could come to an understanding and the main issue he wanted, the main question he wanted answered is whether the Chinese are going to come in. See? And those Marines up around Choce Reservior and were making contacted the Chinese patrol. But General MacArthur assured him that, well, he says, "All this commotion about the Chinese coming in, their statements they've made, that they're not going to come in to this war." And so, President Truman went home and he hadn't been in the Oval Office very long and so the Chinese forged on, the armies were coming across the Yaloo and of course, things deteriorated and of course, he had to release MacArthur and of course, he had the advice of General Marshall and the Chiefs of Staff and so forth. They had problems with him.
PRYOR: That was a momentous time in our country's history and MacArthur was almost God-like figure there.
MCMATH: He was God-like. He was running for President.
PRYOR: Yeah, he did run for President. By the way in 1954, a little tid bit of history, we're talking about some of those campaigns. I believe it was in September of '54, that Joe McCarthy was censored by the United States Senate. A censor came down against him. In the war, in World War II, I've heard you speak of this often and I know that you feel very strongly about it and you've probably developed an expertise in this field that no one knows much about. Tell us about Bauxite, Arkansas in Saline County, very briefly, and its contribution to the World War II war effort if you would.
MCMATH: David...
PRYOR: Very few people know about it.
MCMATH: David, I appreciate you asking me that question. You talk about history. This is a dramatic chapter in the history of Arkansas and the history of the country nobody knows about. That the average person doesn't know anything about it. You know, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt announced to the world that we're going to build 100,000 airplanes. Well, you have to have aluminum to build airplanes and the experts didn't think that he could do it, that we could do it. Hitler didn't think we could do because at that time the bauxite that we were using was coming from South America and the Nazi naval blockade had sunk these ships bringing up bauxite and at one time, I mean, blockaded the South Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico and so we weren't getting that source of bauxite. And Alcoa had had a very conservative policy of conserving their resources for the future. See? So, they were using this South America bauxite. Well, Roosevelt knew something that the experts didn't know and that Hitler didn't know. He knew about Bauxite, Arkansas. 95% of the bauxite in North America was in Bauxite, Arkansas and he knew about the people that would be called upon to go in and dig it out. The people at Bauxite and central Arkansas went in and worked around the clock to dig out that bauxite and aluminum was produced and planes were built and battles were fought and victories won and the 8th Air Force, we just observed "D" Day on June the 6th. They had a mission and that mission after they made the landing was to prevent Rommel and three (3) crack Nazi divisions from launching a counter attack against our beachhead. Well, Rommel had his divisions ready but he was waiting for orders from Hitler and Hitler was asleep and nobody would even wake him up. And when he got the orders it was too late because the 8th Air Force had destroyed the lines of communication, the railroads, the highways and so forth leading down to the beaches and so the Nazi troopers never got there and the planes that the 8th Air Force was flying were made from aluminum mined out from Bauxite, Arkansas.
PRYOR: What a great story.
MCMATH: Isn't that a great story? It is a thrilling story. Bauxite was mined to make that aluminum.
PRYOR: One, I think was developed, has developed to this as a story and once again it's a great part.
MCMATH: And to say this about Alcoa, it's a great company. You know, they just scarred the earth down there to meet the defense demand. If you'd flown over it, it looked like Mars or the moon but do you know what they're doing? They're working with the Game and Fish Commission to rehabilitate that land and restore it to its natural state and turn it all into state parks.
PRYOR: That's great. That's just great. Now, here you are, you're practicing law. You're out of office. You've run against....
SIDNEY McMATH - DAVID PRYOR transcript three
SIDNEY McMATH - DAVID PRYOR
DAVID PRYOR: Well, here you are, Governor, in 1949. You've been sworn in as the new Governor of our State, the youngest in history probably and maybe one of the youngest Governors throughout the country. They're even now referring to you as "Mr. Charisma". You had sort of invented charisma way before John Kennedy and his people came along and it was a dynamic time, not only for you, you were a dynamic Governor but it was a dynamic time for our State.
SIDNEY McMATH:It was right after the war.
PRYOR: After the war and things were rolling and people were buying things and there was a great deal of excitement. There was, let's say the new crowd was coming in and you were right at the forefront, the apex of this movement.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: Let's talk a little bit about Arkansas for that moment. How our road systems, for example, I think, I've always heard that when you became Governor, there were eight (8) counties in our State that didn't have a mile of paved roads. What did you do about that?
MCMATH: Well, you know, getting back to my farm life, we went to town over a corduroy road. That's the logs, the trees laid parallel, you know, and dirty wet spots that left areas flooded and so forth and I never saw a paved road until I went to Hot Springs, if you can believe that, when I was ten (10) years of age.
PRYOR: First time you saw a paved street.
MCMATH: First time I'd seen a paved street. I'd seen sidewalks and my sister and I were taking the streetcar out to South Whittington where we lived, West Whittington was where we lived and we had to change streetcars at the junction of Park Avenue and Whittington junction. And while we were waiting, my sister used to tell this on me and just get the biggest kick out it. She said I went out in the middle of the street and tapped on the pavement and I said, "Look a-here, sister, here's a pavement out in the middle of the street."
PRYOR: A pavement out in the middle of the street.
MCMATH: So, we didn't have any hard surface roads and, of course, Arkansas, at that time, we'd just been through a war and most things had been neglected, particularly the roads and we didn't have the roads, the farmers didn't have roads to get their produce to the market and get the children to school and we were losing population in the rural areas. And so we came up with a bond issue, and we were able to sell the bonds and get a road program going and one of the interesting things that happened was that I went to New York to help sell the bonds, and incidentally we sold those less than 3% interest. We had to pay, I think, a little more than 2 1/2% interest or anyway, the Chase Manhattan Bank, I believe was the bank, it had a cocktail party for me. See?
PRYOR: In New York?
MCMATH: In New York and it seemed to me like all the people there were Vice Presidents of the bank and I figured then that the job of a Vice President was to attend cocktail parties, be a personal relations person. Anyway, we were standing around talking and one of the Vice Presidents said, "Governor, how close to Little Rock can you get by airplane?" I said, "Well", I looked at him and saw he was serious, and I said, "Well", I said, "We can get to Memphis by airplane" and I said, "At Memphis we take a boat and go down to the Arkansas River and we go up the Arkansas River to Pine Bluff and at Pine Bluff we get a stagecoach in to Little Rock." And by then he figured out I was putting him on. But anyway, back then people didn't know much about Little Rock and Arkansas. One of them asked me, he says, "What kind - do you have any moisture in Arkansas? Do you have any water? Is it like Arizona? Is it arrid?" See?
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: They didn't think there was anything west of the Mississippi but now then everybody knows about Little Rock and half of the people have been here. See? So, we got the road program bonds passed and a good road program started and we divided the money equally between the rural to market roads and the primary highway.
PRYOR: Well, Governor, if I'm not mistaken, you built probably more miles of paved roads than any other Governor in history and you did this in a four (4) year period and you did it with a bond issue.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: And it's really amazing.
MCMATH: And those bonds were paid off.
PRYOR: They were paid off.
MCMATH: With I think a $.02 tax on gasoline.
PRYOR: Now, speaking of a $.02 tax. Every time today that I go by the University of Arkansas Medical Center, and by the way, I go there often, but every time I drive by there and look up at that great facility and what we're doing in cancer. We're renowned all over the world now. People are coming here to the AC or RC Unit, the Cancer Center Unit but we're renowned in many ways, as many of our other facilities are in the city and in the state. But every time I go by there or go in the Med Center, I say, "Thank goodness for Sidney Sanders McMath" and the reason I do this is you helped build the Med Center. You did it with a $.02 per tax per package of cigarettes. Let's talk about that. Was that a hard thing to pass?
MCMATH: Well, of course, that Medical Center is one of the things that I'm proudest of and it's a tremendous place and they have so many dedicated people. The doctors and nurses who could get more money at other places and they're doing a tremendous job there and as you say, it's internationally recognized and you go out and see the cancer research waiting room or treatment room and it's like going to the United Nations. You've got people there from different parts of the world. And Louis Webster Jones was the President of the University of Arkansas and he and several other people came to me and talked to me about the Medical Center, the need for a medical school, among other things to train doctors, to encourage them to go into the rural areas and so forth. So, we put our heads together and came up with a tax of $.02 on each package of cigarettes and that was in 1949 and you can see what's happened since. What an excellent source of revenue for a tax. Half of the patients at the hospital at the time were being treated for a tobacco related disease, emphysema, lung cancer or what not and so that passed and we were able to build the Medical Center and the Medical School, you'll recall was, up until, about 1925 was over in the old State House.
PRYOR: Right. Where the Old State House is.
MCMATH: Down in the basement.
PRYOR: The Medical Center, yeah.
MCMATH: And then in about 1925 they had this incident about the Sheriff losing his dog, you know, his hound dog and he found over behind the Medical Center with the other dogs that they were using for experiments and they wouldn't let him have his dog back, the doctors in charge. So, they thought, well, you know, he's just an old hound dog. And so, he got an indictment, he got an indictment issued against the doctors for stealing his dog. But he got his dog back but they then, the neighbors had been complaining about the animals over there and all the fuss they were making. So, they moved the Medical Center out to McArthur Park, I believe in the building where the law school is now. And then after they got the Medical Center operating and I guess we passed the Bill in '49, I guess '50, '51 it started to operate the hospital over there and the Med School moved over to the Medical Center. It's a wonderful med school.
PRYOR: You've always had a special relationship with the rural areas of Arkansas, out in the communities and the farm areas and I'm sure, that is some degree of reflection of your upbringing.
MCMATH: That's where I came from.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: That's my roots.
PRYOR: Right. One of the areas of your intense interest early on in your administration was trying to get electricity to rural Arkansas. Now, to do this you had to take on some pretty powerful forces. Let's talk about that a moment.
MCMATH: David, that was a passion with me to get electricity to the farms. Where I lived on the farm in south Arkansas, we had no electricity. You know, a washing machine was a black pot in the backyard and a dryer was a clothesline, you know, and we had a tub with a scrub board, you know. And we had no indoor plumbing, you know, and so, I recognized the quality of life that could be experienced by the people in the rural areas if they had electricity. It certainly would lift the burden of the women on the farm. And when I was running in 1948, two (2) people came to see me in Hot Springs. It was Tom Fitzhugh who was the attorney for rural electric coop and Harry Oswald.
PRYOR: Harry Oswald.
MCMATH: Bless his heart, that pioneer, that champion.
PRYOR: What a man.
MCMATH: He did a tremendous job. They came to me and talked about their program and what they wanted to do.
PRYOR: And at that time what portion of the State did they cover? Do you remember at all?
MCMATH: Well, at that time 50% of the rural area in Arkansas had no electricity. See? And they wanted to extend it up in to the rural areas and they couldn't get the power interests to do it. Arkansas Power and Light Company was totally owned by the MidSouth Utilities. And although they told us that was a just a little ole Arkansas county, company, it was owned by Middle South Utilities. They owned all the common stock and they were opposed to the power company extending lines out in the rural areas because it was not profitable at that time but they foresaw that some day it would be highly profitable, which it has happened, you know. So, they were opposed to the coops extending out into this rural area beyond the area that they already had. And they wanted to build their own steam generating plant, build their own steam generating plant and their own generating lines to get the power up into the northern part of Arkansas. And they had to get a loan on the REA program from the federal government. At that time it was up to the Interior Department and Secretary Wickard was the Administrator at that time and so we started working with Secretary Wickard in order to get a loan to the coops in Arkansas to build this plant. Well, that was in 1951 and Steelman, who was from Arkansas and he was the President's Executive Assistant, we worked with him. John R. Steelman.
PRYOR: John R. Steelman.
MCMATH: John R. Steelman. And then Mr. Wickard and we weren't making too much progress because the power company was really opposed to this and MidSouth Utility had a lot of power, political power and so I thought, well, I'd call on the President. Of course, he was involved in the Korean War, you know, at that time, he had a lot on his mind but I thought this was sufficiently important to talk to the President. Well, I got in touch with the President and he must have made a telephone call to Wickard because right after that Wickard sent me a wire announcing that they were loaning some $10,000,000.00 plus to the coop to build an Ozark steam generating plant. Of course, the coop had to get the approval of the Public Service Commission, the State of Arkansas Public Service Commission because they supervised the granting of permits and licenses and supposedly supervised the rates and so forth. Well, they filed this petition and the power company opposed it and, of course, there was a real in-fight that went on for months trying to persuade the power commission, I mean the Arkansas Power Commission, yeah, it was the Power Commission, to deny the application but they granted it. And then the power company went to a Judge and got a restraining order which was affirmed by the Supreme Court of Arkansas saying that the REA, in its original act, back in about '36, way back there, did not authorize the power and the cooperative to build their own generating system. And, of course, our argument was that if they authorized them to build transmission lines and if they were authorized to build transmission lines by implication, they could build the same generating plant to furnish the power to go over the transmission lines to their customers but the Supreme Court didn't see it that way and they ruled against us. Well, in 1953, I guess, or '54, we introduced a Bill in the Legislature because I was out of the Governor's office at that time. I'd been defeated for the third time to permit the coops to build a steam generating plant and the power company had a lot of influence and the Legislature defeated it and then the next year, I think that was '54, we got another Bill passed. So, the coops got the loan to build the steam generating plant at Ozark, Arkansas and then they were off to supply electricity to the rural areas that hadn't been getting their electricity. Now, let me give this as an aside. Of course, I was the first Governor to go to a rural electrification state meeting. Now, the people were pretty well convinced that now this coop was going in and borrowing money, that the government was going to compete with the private power companies, it's Socialism.
PRYOR:It's Socialism. Yeah, that's what they called it.
MCMATH: So, I was invited to go up to Berryville to talk to a coop meeting and I flew up there in a one (1) engine airplane and we had land in a turkey pasture and so we had to make two (2) passes to shoo the turkeys out of the way.
PRYOR: To shoo the turkeys out of the way.
MCMATH: Yeah. And so, I had my statement for the press and the committee all ready. You know, I'd thought about it and I was just sure there was going to be a big crowd out there, you know, to meet me at the air field. I got out of the airplane, walked to the gate, wasn't anybody there. Nobody. Anyway, it was a hot July day.
PRYOR: Well, how did you get to town?
MCMATH: So, I took my coat off and I started walking down a dusty road, another road that I paved. And a farmer came along in a truck. He stopped and he was, "Where are you going?" I said, "I'm going to the coop meeting."
PRYOR: And here you were, the Governor of Arkansas.
MCMATH: Yeah. I was the Governor of Arkansas. He said, "Get in. That's where I'm going." Well, we visited and so forth. I didn't tell him I was the Governor, I assumed he knew, my name had been in the paper and picture and so forth and so we went to the coop meeting in a great big tent. You know, they used to have great big tent. And when it came time for me to talk, I was the speaker and Russ Gates was the manager of the coop and he introduced me, again a flowery introduction. He said, "I give you Sid McMath, the Governor of Arkansas." Well, this old farmer that had brought me to town was sitting on the front row there and he leaned to his neighbor and he said in a loud voice, he said, "That ain't no Governor. He's a hitch-hiker because I know cause I brung him to town."
PRYOR: He thought you were an imposter, didn't he?
MCMATH: That's right. And then, of course, we tried to get...
PRYOR: I'll bet they had a big crowd of people there, didn't they?
MCMATH: Oh, yeah.
PRYOR: Harry Oswald could get more people to turn out and he'd put them all in a tent.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: And he had two (2) secrets that I recall getting people to turn out to a meeting. One, he would feed them. He would feed them well and it was free and he would have some music and fiddlers and whatever and the second thing, he would give away, let's say a color TV, or an old second-hand pickup or a fishing box or something and he would make them stay, he wouldn't give it away until right at the last. So, they had to sit there and listen to the speakers.
MCMATH: Yeah, that's right.
PRYOR: I've been to some of those myself. That's a great story though about rural electrification in our State.
MCMATH: Well, Harry and Tom Fitzhugh and Ellis, Congressman Ellis, Clyde Ellis...
PRYOR: Clyde Ellis.
MCMATH:... they were pioneers and today we have 16 electric cooperatives and I believe they have around 175,000 customers.
PRYOR: One of my proud pictures on my wall is an old store in Ben Hur, Arkansas in Pope, P-O-P-E County, which was the last community to receive electricity and Governor Sid McMath is largely responsible for helping to electrify the State. Now, these were powerful interests that you took on. I'm not saying they were sinister. I'm not saying they were bad. I'm not saying they were not progressive but these were interests that we not encompassing the rural areas at this time and you certainly help make, help to make that possible for many, many thousands of homes and plants and factories and farms to have electricity. Well, those are the major accomplishments but along the way, during that period in your Governor's career, during that four (4) year term and it sounds like all of the things that you've done, you were there much longer than four (4) years. You did an awful lot in four (4) years is my point. Along the way you met up with a man and you brought him in to your administration. His name was Orval Eugene Faubus. Tell us about that.
MCMATH: Well, Orval and I met in Fayetteville. I was running for Governor for the first time in 1948 and we rode from Fayetteville over to Huntsville, his home town in a car and visited. And he was interested in feeling me out, finding out what my platform was and at that time...
PRYOR: Now, he was not the Postmaster yet or what was he at that time?
MCMATH: I don't know whether he was the Postmaster or had been or whether he was a County Clerk or something.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: But anyway, he was trying to make up his mind who he was going to support in that election. And by the time we got to Huntsville he decided he'd support me. So, he supported me and did a good job for me. Of course, he had a close contact with the rural people in northern Arkansas particularly.
PRYOR: He could speak their language.
MCMATH: Speak their language. He understood their needs. He was one of them. And so, when I was elected Governor, Orval said, he says, "Sid, I'd like to have a paying job." So, he came down and he went to work for me as a secretary and his job was to meet with these county committees coming down to try to get their road paved. See? And he knew their needs and understood them and so forth. He was very good and he was very helpful in that area. And, of course, when I was defeated for the third time by Francis Cherry and then Orval came back and defeated Francis Cherry for his second term and Orval, you know, in the high school, the '57 thing came along and he served for, I guess, five (5) terms. Orval was a good administrator and a very personable guy and one of the best campaign pictures I ever saw was one with him with...
PRYOR: I know that picture. Know it well.
MCMATH: With Orval and his coat and his hat, you know, and so forth, great campaign picture, ran in the Gazette, front page in the Gazette. And we were okay until 1957 and we had the Little Rock high school crisis. I call it a "crisis" because that's what it was and I did not feel that he made the right decision on calling out the Guard to keep those children from entering the high school. And I felt that leadership at that time moving in the right direction could resolve in that before it got out of hand. We'd been making a lot of progress in the racial relationship in getting educational opportunities for blacks. We mentioned the Medical Center. In 1948, during that race for my first term, race was a hot issue in that campaign. I mean it was mean and of course, I took my feelings about it and when I was the farm I had worked with blacks and I had seen their conditions and I had seen them with poor whites at the end of the cotton picking season having just enough money hopefully to get them through the next year and so forth. And so I felt that they needed an opportunity to get an education and go to school like everybody else. And so when Orval called out the Guard, I felt that that was moving in the wrong direction. And now, I started to say in 1948 and that was a hot election on the race issue. During that election, it was the Spring of '48, a black woman applied for admission for the Medical School and her name was Edith Irby. She became Edith Irby Jones and Dean, Dr. Louis Webster Jones and the Dean of the Medical School came and talked to me about it. They didn't know what to do about it. And, because as I say, race was a big hot issue in that campaign and the election hadn't been decided. And so my advice to them, I said, "Well, let's wait until the elections are over and let's see what we can do." Well, as soon as the election was over they contacted me and I told them to take her in to the Med School. So, they accepted her and that was the first black student to be admitted to the Medical School and I think the first student to be admitted in our public schools and there was no court order. There was no demonstrations. It was done orderly and she became an outstanding doctor and she moved to Houston and became President of the National Black Women's Medical Association. And then in '48, another thing that I did, as soon as I was nominated in '48, first I supported President Truman and the other thing I did was that, that the blacks didn't have - couldn't vote in the south, you know. Really, they couldn't participate in the election process because all of the south was Democratic, Democratic Party.
PRYOR: Democratic Party at that time outlawed them to.
MCMATH: Yeah, they were not members of the party, therefore, they couldn't vote.
PRYOR: It's unbelievable.
MCMATH: That's right. And so in '48, in September of '48 at the Robinson Auditorium, we changed the Democratic Party rules so as to get the blacks.
PRYOR: That was one of the most courageous things that you've ever done.
MCMATH: And so we felt it was...
PRYOR: Was that a fight by the way, did you have a fight there?
MCMATH: We had done a lot ground work.
PRYOR: You had.
MCMATH: Did a lot of ground work on that and got it passed and then Virgil Blossom, the Superintendent of the Schools was making lectures and talking to people and so forth and we headed in the right direction and you remember the background of all of this was the Cold War. We were fighting for the minds and hearts of people around the world.
PRYOR: Yet we were the people who practicing segregation
MCMATH: Yeah, so we wanted to demonstrate that everybody was free in this country. So, when this happened, there weren't, you know, that didn't help us around the world from then on. People around the world didn't like that old bad Arkansas from what they knew about Little Rock.
PRYOR: Governor, one of the best books about you, this book was written over 20 years ago now by Jim Lester. It's A Man for Arkansas. It's about the life and times of Sidney Sanders McMath. Wonderful little book. In this book, Jim Lester details your speech in 1951 in Minnesota to, I think, the National Urban Institute or Urban League, talking about the need for tolerance and then in 1956, no longer in office, nothing to gain, nothing to lose, you try to help move for the abolition of the poll tax that we still had at that time.
MCMATH: That's right. Didn't have a policy for poll tax until after '64.
PRYOR: That's correct and the poll tax itself was one of those obstacles created to prevent the minorities from voting.
MCMATH: You're absolutely right, David. The poll tax was used, number one as a means...
PRYOR: That is correct.
MCMATH: ...of corrupting elections.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: And then it was used as a means of disfranchising the blacks. See?
PRYOR: That is correct.
MCMATH: You had to go down and buy your poll tax and you had to do that a year before the election.
PRYOR: Well, let's stay back on 1957 a moment because Faubus calls out the National Guard. He's the Governor. You're out of office. I want to talk about a campaign or two between that but he is in the Governor's office and he calls the Guard out and you strongly disagree with him in public. And evidently you go on television and you characterized this as a very wrong direction for us to be taking at this time. He fires back at you. You are his own mentor. You're his former boss. He worked for you. And as you said, you paved that highway 23, which we affectionately call the "Pig Trail" and that Faubus had you build. Don't you agree? One of your great mistakes there but personally you and the Governor, Governor Faubus, I guess, at that time had a split and it really never healed to any extent, I guess.
MCMATH: Well, politically yes, it was a serious split, Personally I had no animosity toward Orval. I understood what he was doing and so forth and we got along personally. I never fell out with him as an individual. We didn't see each other. We didn't have lunch and so forth, didn't review old times but the difference was a political difference. Social difference.
PRYOR: Well, it's real interesting about him. This program is not about Orval Faubus but he was such a dominant force in Arkansas politics for so long but the appearance was, and especially in reading Roy Reed's fabulous book that he spent about 10 years in researching and published three (3) years ago. In Roy's book, Roy Reed's book, he characterizes Faubus as not necessarily, especially in his younger years, as what you might call, what we would know as a segregationist. He grew up there in the mountains. There were not very many minorities. There were no black citizens there and he didn't really know black people until he came to the central part of the State and he got acquainted with them but ultimately, it's my theory only, that he ultimately decided that that's where the votes were at the time.
MCMATH: As you recall in his second term, Jim Johnson ran against him.
PRYOR: Yes, in '56.
MCMATH: And Jim Johnson really used the race issue and he ran him a hard race.
PRYOR: He still uses it.
MCMATH: And Orval, at that time, said, "Well, nobody is going to use this race issue against me in the future."
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: Nobody is going to, you know, and so forth. And, of course, another thing that happened, I say it was a mistake in light of the progress we were making and so forth, to call out the troops, to bar, block the court order to keep these children out of the school. I also thought it was ill-advised for President Eisenhower to send out his 101st AirBorne. See? Because it just gave the wrong impression and so forth and it's an invasion of the Yankees again and so forth and I talked to Vice President Nixon and asked him if he would, if he could dissuade to the President from using the 101st AirBorne. If we couldn't work it out locally, the United States Marshall would have been a very appropriate instrument by coming down and doing what's necessary to enforce the law. If the United States Marshall shows up, people are going to respect him and so forth but then, but using their 101st Air Borne, you know, we were still close to a civil war. A lot of our people came from Georgia, and Alabama and Mississippi and so forth. So, we inherited that feeling. Regardless of how loyal they are to the flag and so forth, we had some ties that was still binding, you know, and suffered together and so forth but when they used the 101st AirBorne, well the people who were really not for Faubus rallied, "Well, we've been invaded". See? And so that give him the political power that he needed to be in office...
DAVID PRYOR: Well, here you are, Governor, in 1949. You've been sworn in as the new Governor of our State, the youngest in history probably and maybe one of the youngest Governors throughout the country. They're even now referring to you as "Mr. Charisma". You had sort of invented charisma way before John Kennedy and his people came along and it was a dynamic time, not only for you, you were a dynamic Governor but it was a dynamic time for our State.
SIDNEY McMATH:It was right after the war.
PRYOR: After the war and things were rolling and people were buying things and there was a great deal of excitement. There was, let's say the new crowd was coming in and you were right at the forefront, the apex of this movement.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: Let's talk a little bit about Arkansas for that moment. How our road systems, for example, I think, I've always heard that when you became Governor, there were eight (8) counties in our State that didn't have a mile of paved roads. What did you do about that?
MCMATH: Well, you know, getting back to my farm life, we went to town over a corduroy road. That's the logs, the trees laid parallel, you know, and dirty wet spots that left areas flooded and so forth and I never saw a paved road until I went to Hot Springs, if you can believe that, when I was ten (10) years of age.
PRYOR: First time you saw a paved street.
MCMATH: First time I'd seen a paved street. I'd seen sidewalks and my sister and I were taking the streetcar out to South Whittington where we lived, West Whittington was where we lived and we had to change streetcars at the junction of Park Avenue and Whittington junction. And while we were waiting, my sister used to tell this on me and just get the biggest kick out it. She said I went out in the middle of the street and tapped on the pavement and I said, "Look a-here, sister, here's a pavement out in the middle of the street."
PRYOR: A pavement out in the middle of the street.
MCMATH: So, we didn't have any hard surface roads and, of course, Arkansas, at that time, we'd just been through a war and most things had been neglected, particularly the roads and we didn't have the roads, the farmers didn't have roads to get their produce to the market and get the children to school and we were losing population in the rural areas. And so we came up with a bond issue, and we were able to sell the bonds and get a road program going and one of the interesting things that happened was that I went to New York to help sell the bonds, and incidentally we sold those less than 3% interest. We had to pay, I think, a little more than 2 1/2% interest or anyway, the Chase Manhattan Bank, I believe was the bank, it had a cocktail party for me. See?
PRYOR: In New York?
MCMATH: In New York and it seemed to me like all the people there were Vice Presidents of the bank and I figured then that the job of a Vice President was to attend cocktail parties, be a personal relations person. Anyway, we were standing around talking and one of the Vice Presidents said, "Governor, how close to Little Rock can you get by airplane?" I said, "Well", I looked at him and saw he was serious, and I said, "Well", I said, "We can get to Memphis by airplane" and I said, "At Memphis we take a boat and go down to the Arkansas River and we go up the Arkansas River to Pine Bluff and at Pine Bluff we get a stagecoach in to Little Rock." And by then he figured out I was putting him on. But anyway, back then people didn't know much about Little Rock and Arkansas. One of them asked me, he says, "What kind - do you have any moisture in Arkansas? Do you have any water? Is it like Arizona? Is it arrid?" See?
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: They didn't think there was anything west of the Mississippi but now then everybody knows about Little Rock and half of the people have been here. See? So, we got the road program bonds passed and a good road program started and we divided the money equally between the rural to market roads and the primary highway.
PRYOR: Well, Governor, if I'm not mistaken, you built probably more miles of paved roads than any other Governor in history and you did this in a four (4) year period and you did it with a bond issue.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: And it's really amazing.
MCMATH: And those bonds were paid off.
PRYOR: They were paid off.
MCMATH: With I think a $.02 tax on gasoline.
PRYOR: Now, speaking of a $.02 tax. Every time today that I go by the University of Arkansas Medical Center, and by the way, I go there often, but every time I drive by there and look up at that great facility and what we're doing in cancer. We're renowned all over the world now. People are coming here to the AC or RC Unit, the Cancer Center Unit but we're renowned in many ways, as many of our other facilities are in the city and in the state. But every time I go by there or go in the Med Center, I say, "Thank goodness for Sidney Sanders McMath" and the reason I do this is you helped build the Med Center. You did it with a $.02 per tax per package of cigarettes. Let's talk about that. Was that a hard thing to pass?
MCMATH: Well, of course, that Medical Center is one of the things that I'm proudest of and it's a tremendous place and they have so many dedicated people. The doctors and nurses who could get more money at other places and they're doing a tremendous job there and as you say, it's internationally recognized and you go out and see the cancer research waiting room or treatment room and it's like going to the United Nations. You've got people there from different parts of the world. And Louis Webster Jones was the President of the University of Arkansas and he and several other people came to me and talked to me about the Medical Center, the need for a medical school, among other things to train doctors, to encourage them to go into the rural areas and so forth. So, we put our heads together and came up with a tax of $.02 on each package of cigarettes and that was in 1949 and you can see what's happened since. What an excellent source of revenue for a tax. Half of the patients at the hospital at the time were being treated for a tobacco related disease, emphysema, lung cancer or what not and so that passed and we were able to build the Medical Center and the Medical School, you'll recall was, up until, about 1925 was over in the old State House.
PRYOR: Right. Where the Old State House is.
MCMATH: Down in the basement.
PRYOR: The Medical Center, yeah.
MCMATH: And then in about 1925 they had this incident about the Sheriff losing his dog, you know, his hound dog and he found over behind the Medical Center with the other dogs that they were using for experiments and they wouldn't let him have his dog back, the doctors in charge. So, they thought, well, you know, he's just an old hound dog. And so, he got an indictment, he got an indictment issued against the doctors for stealing his dog. But he got his dog back but they then, the neighbors had been complaining about the animals over there and all the fuss they were making. So, they moved the Medical Center out to McArthur Park, I believe in the building where the law school is now. And then after they got the Medical Center operating and I guess we passed the Bill in '49, I guess '50, '51 it started to operate the hospital over there and the Med School moved over to the Medical Center. It's a wonderful med school.
PRYOR: You've always had a special relationship with the rural areas of Arkansas, out in the communities and the farm areas and I'm sure, that is some degree of reflection of your upbringing.
MCMATH: That's where I came from.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: That's my roots.
PRYOR: Right. One of the areas of your intense interest early on in your administration was trying to get electricity to rural Arkansas. Now, to do this you had to take on some pretty powerful forces. Let's talk about that a moment.
MCMATH: David, that was a passion with me to get electricity to the farms. Where I lived on the farm in south Arkansas, we had no electricity. You know, a washing machine was a black pot in the backyard and a dryer was a clothesline, you know, and we had a tub with a scrub board, you know. And we had no indoor plumbing, you know, and so, I recognized the quality of life that could be experienced by the people in the rural areas if they had electricity. It certainly would lift the burden of the women on the farm. And when I was running in 1948, two (2) people came to see me in Hot Springs. It was Tom Fitzhugh who was the attorney for rural electric coop and Harry Oswald.
PRYOR: Harry Oswald.
MCMATH: Bless his heart, that pioneer, that champion.
PRYOR: What a man.
MCMATH: He did a tremendous job. They came to me and talked about their program and what they wanted to do.
PRYOR: And at that time what portion of the State did they cover? Do you remember at all?
MCMATH: Well, at that time 50% of the rural area in Arkansas had no electricity. See? And they wanted to extend it up in to the rural areas and they couldn't get the power interests to do it. Arkansas Power and Light Company was totally owned by the MidSouth Utilities. And although they told us that was a just a little ole Arkansas county, company, it was owned by Middle South Utilities. They owned all the common stock and they were opposed to the power company extending lines out in the rural areas because it was not profitable at that time but they foresaw that some day it would be highly profitable, which it has happened, you know. So, they were opposed to the coops extending out into this rural area beyond the area that they already had. And they wanted to build their own steam generating plant, build their own steam generating plant and their own generating lines to get the power up into the northern part of Arkansas. And they had to get a loan on the REA program from the federal government. At that time it was up to the Interior Department and Secretary Wickard was the Administrator at that time and so we started working with Secretary Wickard in order to get a loan to the coops in Arkansas to build this plant. Well, that was in 1951 and Steelman, who was from Arkansas and he was the President's Executive Assistant, we worked with him. John R. Steelman.
PRYOR: John R. Steelman.
MCMATH: John R. Steelman. And then Mr. Wickard and we weren't making too much progress because the power company was really opposed to this and MidSouth Utility had a lot of power, political power and so I thought, well, I'd call on the President. Of course, he was involved in the Korean War, you know, at that time, he had a lot on his mind but I thought this was sufficiently important to talk to the President. Well, I got in touch with the President and he must have made a telephone call to Wickard because right after that Wickard sent me a wire announcing that they were loaning some $10,000,000.00 plus to the coop to build an Ozark steam generating plant. Of course, the coop had to get the approval of the Public Service Commission, the State of Arkansas Public Service Commission because they supervised the granting of permits and licenses and supposedly supervised the rates and so forth. Well, they filed this petition and the power company opposed it and, of course, there was a real in-fight that went on for months trying to persuade the power commission, I mean the Arkansas Power Commission, yeah, it was the Power Commission, to deny the application but they granted it. And then the power company went to a Judge and got a restraining order which was affirmed by the Supreme Court of Arkansas saying that the REA, in its original act, back in about '36, way back there, did not authorize the power and the cooperative to build their own generating system. And, of course, our argument was that if they authorized them to build transmission lines and if they were authorized to build transmission lines by implication, they could build the same generating plant to furnish the power to go over the transmission lines to their customers but the Supreme Court didn't see it that way and they ruled against us. Well, in 1953, I guess, or '54, we introduced a Bill in the Legislature because I was out of the Governor's office at that time. I'd been defeated for the third time to permit the coops to build a steam generating plant and the power company had a lot of influence and the Legislature defeated it and then the next year, I think that was '54, we got another Bill passed. So, the coops got the loan to build the steam generating plant at Ozark, Arkansas and then they were off to supply electricity to the rural areas that hadn't been getting their electricity. Now, let me give this as an aside. Of course, I was the first Governor to go to a rural electrification state meeting. Now, the people were pretty well convinced that now this coop was going in and borrowing money, that the government was going to compete with the private power companies, it's Socialism.
PRYOR:It's Socialism. Yeah, that's what they called it.
MCMATH: So, I was invited to go up to Berryville to talk to a coop meeting and I flew up there in a one (1) engine airplane and we had land in a turkey pasture and so we had to make two (2) passes to shoo the turkeys out of the way.
PRYOR: To shoo the turkeys out of the way.
MCMATH: Yeah. And so, I had my statement for the press and the committee all ready. You know, I'd thought about it and I was just sure there was going to be a big crowd out there, you know, to meet me at the air field. I got out of the airplane, walked to the gate, wasn't anybody there. Nobody. Anyway, it was a hot July day.
PRYOR: Well, how did you get to town?
MCMATH: So, I took my coat off and I started walking down a dusty road, another road that I paved. And a farmer came along in a truck. He stopped and he was, "Where are you going?" I said, "I'm going to the coop meeting."
PRYOR: And here you were, the Governor of Arkansas.
MCMATH: Yeah. I was the Governor of Arkansas. He said, "Get in. That's where I'm going." Well, we visited and so forth. I didn't tell him I was the Governor, I assumed he knew, my name had been in the paper and picture and so forth and so we went to the coop meeting in a great big tent. You know, they used to have great big tent. And when it came time for me to talk, I was the speaker and Russ Gates was the manager of the coop and he introduced me, again a flowery introduction. He said, "I give you Sid McMath, the Governor of Arkansas." Well, this old farmer that had brought me to town was sitting on the front row there and he leaned to his neighbor and he said in a loud voice, he said, "That ain't no Governor. He's a hitch-hiker because I know cause I brung him to town."
PRYOR: He thought you were an imposter, didn't he?
MCMATH: That's right. And then, of course, we tried to get...
PRYOR: I'll bet they had a big crowd of people there, didn't they?
MCMATH: Oh, yeah.
PRYOR: Harry Oswald could get more people to turn out and he'd put them all in a tent.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: And he had two (2) secrets that I recall getting people to turn out to a meeting. One, he would feed them. He would feed them well and it was free and he would have some music and fiddlers and whatever and the second thing, he would give away, let's say a color TV, or an old second-hand pickup or a fishing box or something and he would make them stay, he wouldn't give it away until right at the last. So, they had to sit there and listen to the speakers.
MCMATH: Yeah, that's right.
PRYOR: I've been to some of those myself. That's a great story though about rural electrification in our State.
MCMATH: Well, Harry and Tom Fitzhugh and Ellis, Congressman Ellis, Clyde Ellis...
PRYOR: Clyde Ellis.
MCMATH:... they were pioneers and today we have 16 electric cooperatives and I believe they have around 175,000 customers.
PRYOR: One of my proud pictures on my wall is an old store in Ben Hur, Arkansas in Pope, P-O-P-E County, which was the last community to receive electricity and Governor Sid McMath is largely responsible for helping to electrify the State. Now, these were powerful interests that you took on. I'm not saying they were sinister. I'm not saying they were bad. I'm not saying they were not progressive but these were interests that we not encompassing the rural areas at this time and you certainly help make, help to make that possible for many, many thousands of homes and plants and factories and farms to have electricity. Well, those are the major accomplishments but along the way, during that period in your Governor's career, during that four (4) year term and it sounds like all of the things that you've done, you were there much longer than four (4) years. You did an awful lot in four (4) years is my point. Along the way you met up with a man and you brought him in to your administration. His name was Orval Eugene Faubus. Tell us about that.
MCMATH: Well, Orval and I met in Fayetteville. I was running for Governor for the first time in 1948 and we rode from Fayetteville over to Huntsville, his home town in a car and visited. And he was interested in feeling me out, finding out what my platform was and at that time...
PRYOR: Now, he was not the Postmaster yet or what was he at that time?
MCMATH: I don't know whether he was the Postmaster or had been or whether he was a County Clerk or something.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: But anyway, he was trying to make up his mind who he was going to support in that election. And by the time we got to Huntsville he decided he'd support me. So, he supported me and did a good job for me. Of course, he had a close contact with the rural people in northern Arkansas particularly.
PRYOR: He could speak their language.
MCMATH: Speak their language. He understood their needs. He was one of them. And so, when I was elected Governor, Orval said, he says, "Sid, I'd like to have a paying job." So, he came down and he went to work for me as a secretary and his job was to meet with these county committees coming down to try to get their road paved. See? And he knew their needs and understood them and so forth. He was very good and he was very helpful in that area. And, of course, when I was defeated for the third time by Francis Cherry and then Orval came back and defeated Francis Cherry for his second term and Orval, you know, in the high school, the '57 thing came along and he served for, I guess, five (5) terms. Orval was a good administrator and a very personable guy and one of the best campaign pictures I ever saw was one with him with...
PRYOR: I know that picture. Know it well.
MCMATH: With Orval and his coat and his hat, you know, and so forth, great campaign picture, ran in the Gazette, front page in the Gazette. And we were okay until 1957 and we had the Little Rock high school crisis. I call it a "crisis" because that's what it was and I did not feel that he made the right decision on calling out the Guard to keep those children from entering the high school. And I felt that leadership at that time moving in the right direction could resolve in that before it got out of hand. We'd been making a lot of progress in the racial relationship in getting educational opportunities for blacks. We mentioned the Medical Center. In 1948, during that race for my first term, race was a hot issue in that campaign. I mean it was mean and of course, I took my feelings about it and when I was the farm I had worked with blacks and I had seen their conditions and I had seen them with poor whites at the end of the cotton picking season having just enough money hopefully to get them through the next year and so forth. And so I felt that they needed an opportunity to get an education and go to school like everybody else. And so when Orval called out the Guard, I felt that that was moving in the wrong direction. And now, I started to say in 1948 and that was a hot election on the race issue. During that election, it was the Spring of '48, a black woman applied for admission for the Medical School and her name was Edith Irby. She became Edith Irby Jones and Dean, Dr. Louis Webster Jones and the Dean of the Medical School came and talked to me about it. They didn't know what to do about it. And, because as I say, race was a big hot issue in that campaign and the election hadn't been decided. And so my advice to them, I said, "Well, let's wait until the elections are over and let's see what we can do." Well, as soon as the election was over they contacted me and I told them to take her in to the Med School. So, they accepted her and that was the first black student to be admitted to the Medical School and I think the first student to be admitted in our public schools and there was no court order. There was no demonstrations. It was done orderly and she became an outstanding doctor and she moved to Houston and became President of the National Black Women's Medical Association. And then in '48, another thing that I did, as soon as I was nominated in '48, first I supported President Truman and the other thing I did was that, that the blacks didn't have - couldn't vote in the south, you know. Really, they couldn't participate in the election process because all of the south was Democratic, Democratic Party.
PRYOR: Democratic Party at that time outlawed them to.
MCMATH: Yeah, they were not members of the party, therefore, they couldn't vote.
PRYOR: It's unbelievable.
MCMATH: That's right. And so in '48, in September of '48 at the Robinson Auditorium, we changed the Democratic Party rules so as to get the blacks.
PRYOR: That was one of the most courageous things that you've ever done.
MCMATH: And so we felt it was...
PRYOR: Was that a fight by the way, did you have a fight there?
MCMATH: We had done a lot ground work.
PRYOR: You had.
MCMATH: Did a lot of ground work on that and got it passed and then Virgil Blossom, the Superintendent of the Schools was making lectures and talking to people and so forth and we headed in the right direction and you remember the background of all of this was the Cold War. We were fighting for the minds and hearts of people around the world.
PRYOR: Yet we were the people who practicing segregation
MCMATH: Yeah, so we wanted to demonstrate that everybody was free in this country. So, when this happened, there weren't, you know, that didn't help us around the world from then on. People around the world didn't like that old bad Arkansas from what they knew about Little Rock.
PRYOR: Governor, one of the best books about you, this book was written over 20 years ago now by Jim Lester. It's A Man for Arkansas. It's about the life and times of Sidney Sanders McMath. Wonderful little book. In this book, Jim Lester details your speech in 1951 in Minnesota to, I think, the National Urban Institute or Urban League, talking about the need for tolerance and then in 1956, no longer in office, nothing to gain, nothing to lose, you try to help move for the abolition of the poll tax that we still had at that time.
MCMATH: That's right. Didn't have a policy for poll tax until after '64.
PRYOR: That's correct and the poll tax itself was one of those obstacles created to prevent the minorities from voting.
MCMATH: You're absolutely right, David. The poll tax was used, number one as a means...
PRYOR: That is correct.
MCMATH: ...of corrupting elections.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: And then it was used as a means of disfranchising the blacks. See?
PRYOR: That is correct.
MCMATH: You had to go down and buy your poll tax and you had to do that a year before the election.
PRYOR: Well, let's stay back on 1957 a moment because Faubus calls out the National Guard. He's the Governor. You're out of office. I want to talk about a campaign or two between that but he is in the Governor's office and he calls the Guard out and you strongly disagree with him in public. And evidently you go on television and you characterized this as a very wrong direction for us to be taking at this time. He fires back at you. You are his own mentor. You're his former boss. He worked for you. And as you said, you paved that highway 23, which we affectionately call the "Pig Trail" and that Faubus had you build. Don't you agree? One of your great mistakes there but personally you and the Governor, Governor Faubus, I guess, at that time had a split and it really never healed to any extent, I guess.
MCMATH: Well, politically yes, it was a serious split, Personally I had no animosity toward Orval. I understood what he was doing and so forth and we got along personally. I never fell out with him as an individual. We didn't see each other. We didn't have lunch and so forth, didn't review old times but the difference was a political difference. Social difference.
PRYOR: Well, it's real interesting about him. This program is not about Orval Faubus but he was such a dominant force in Arkansas politics for so long but the appearance was, and especially in reading Roy Reed's fabulous book that he spent about 10 years in researching and published three (3) years ago. In Roy's book, Roy Reed's book, he characterizes Faubus as not necessarily, especially in his younger years, as what you might call, what we would know as a segregationist. He grew up there in the mountains. There were not very many minorities. There were no black citizens there and he didn't really know black people until he came to the central part of the State and he got acquainted with them but ultimately, it's my theory only, that he ultimately decided that that's where the votes were at the time.
MCMATH: As you recall in his second term, Jim Johnson ran against him.
PRYOR: Yes, in '56.
MCMATH: And Jim Johnson really used the race issue and he ran him a hard race.
PRYOR: He still uses it.
MCMATH: And Orval, at that time, said, "Well, nobody is going to use this race issue against me in the future."
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: Nobody is going to, you know, and so forth. And, of course, another thing that happened, I say it was a mistake in light of the progress we were making and so forth, to call out the troops, to bar, block the court order to keep these children out of the school. I also thought it was ill-advised for President Eisenhower to send out his 101st AirBorne. See? Because it just gave the wrong impression and so forth and it's an invasion of the Yankees again and so forth and I talked to Vice President Nixon and asked him if he would, if he could dissuade to the President from using the 101st AirBorne. If we couldn't work it out locally, the United States Marshall would have been a very appropriate instrument by coming down and doing what's necessary to enforce the law. If the United States Marshall shows up, people are going to respect him and so forth but then, but using their 101st Air Borne, you know, we were still close to a civil war. A lot of our people came from Georgia, and Alabama and Mississippi and so forth. So, we inherited that feeling. Regardless of how loyal they are to the flag and so forth, we had some ties that was still binding, you know, and suffered together and so forth but when they used the 101st AirBorne, well the people who were really not for Faubus rallied, "Well, we've been invaded". See? And so that give him the political power that he needed to be in office...
SIDNEY McMATH - DAVID PRYOR Transcript Two
SIDNEY McMATH - DAVID PRYOR
PRYOR: Well, Governor, you went back into the Marines there. I believe you took your commission, so to speak.
McMATH: Yes.
PRYOR: You had had the Reserve and then you went back in to active duty a year before Pearl Harbor.
McMATH: Right.
PRYOR: What were you doing on Pearl Harbor Day, by the way? You remember that day. All of us do.
McMATH: Yeah. After I went home, as you mentioned, as we mentioned, I went back in in August of 1940, a year before Pearl Harbor and the reason I went back in, I felt obliged to and then I had a reserve commission. And so, when I was getting out of the Corp in 1937, a Colonel, Captain Louie Chesty Fuller, one of the most famous Marines ever, highly decorated, came by my quarters to see me. And he said, "Sandy", he called Scotch men "Sandy", he said, "I can understand you going home to marry your sweetheart and to practice law but let me tell you something", he said, "You need to take a reserve commission because we're going to war." And that was in 1937.
PRYOR: Four (4) years.
McMATH: He foresaw four (4) years before the war against Japan.
PRYOR: And he even thought it to and predicted it to be Japan, is that right?
McMATH: That's right. That's right. He thought it was Japan and the Marine Corp was getting psychologically prepared for a war against Japan. See? At that time, of course, the Marine Corp was a small organization. They had only about 17,000 Marines and at the end of the war they had five (5) divisions, you know. But anyway, and so, I took the commission and went back in to the Marine Corp. I went through a refresher course and then I stayed on at Quanaco at the Marine Training School there, training second lieutenants, officer candidates for two (2) years. And Elaine joined me in Quanaco and we had our son in Quanaco. Sandy was born there.
PRYOR: Sandy. Okay.
McMATH: Yeah, and then she died. She died on our fifth wedding anniversary.
PRYOR: And what age was she at that time?
McMATH: She was 25.
PRYOR: What a tragedy.
McMATH: And so, and then I requested overseas duty. And General Shepherd was the commander of the school at the time. Lemmel Shepherd. He subsequently became Commandant of the Marine Corp and I had put in three (3) applications for a transfer. The third time, the application I put in, he sent for me and he says, and of course I went in and Lou was standing in front of the desk. He said "McMath, how long would it take you to pack altogether?" I said, "I've got it together, sir." And he said, "You'll get on the next bus to New Miller, North Carolina. You're going to join the Third Regiment, you're going to join the Third Marine Division and you're going to the Solomens."
PRYOR: My goodness.
McMATH: So, I went down and joined the Third Marine Regiment and we were just putting it together and then we went on out to the Pacific area.
PRYOR: The military has always been an important part of Sidney McMath's life.
McMATH: It has.
PRYOR: Because it's always been a very meaningful part, I should say, in your life and also in your career you've had and just recently you were saluted on Flag Day by the local citizens here and it's really, in fact, it seems like every time I pick up the paper or turn on the TV, here's Governor McMath once again being saluted by some group, be it at the Old State House, Convention Center or the Bar Association or a group of military people. And so, it's kind of a McMath renascence period, I believe. It's a grand tribute to you, sir.
McMATH: Somebody discovered I was still around.
PRYOR: Well, it's a grand tribute to you.
McMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: And really a wonderful thing.
McMATH: Well, the military was, it was an important part of my life and it was a privilege to serve and I feel it's my greatest contribution, if I made a contribution, I made some contribution, was as a training officer. At Quanaco I trained for about two (2) years. I was training officer candidates and not only were they outstanding youngsters, honor students from colleges and so forth, some of them went on to be Senators, Judges and so forth. As a matter of fact I tried a case about five (5) years ago before a Judge who was one of my students in officer candidate school in Quanaco.
PRYOR: What a small world.
McMATH: And then I went, we went overseas, the Marines landed in Solomens in August, 1942, the first Marine Division and we were to join the first Marine Division but en route we were diverted to America Samoa. You know, that was a base of really operations in that part of the world and to protect it against the Japanese who were moving south towards New Zealand and Australia. So, as soon as I got ashore I said, "Well, I'm sure I'm going to get a company or a battalion since I was a Major by then." And they gave me word that I was going to be the training officers for jungle warfare school.
PRYOR: Oh, my. Well, that was important.
McMATH: So, we set up a jungle warfare school and put the non-commissioned officers and the junior officers or the Third Marine Regiment through the jungle warfare school. See? And then, of course, after that I was made Operations Officer for the Third Marine Regiment and that's where we were.
PRYOR: So, you saw some real combat at Guadal Canal, Guam, Gugandel, in the Solomon Island Chain and the Pacific Theater, so to speak and here you come out of the Marines and you are decorated with the Legion of Merit, the Silver Star. You are now a Major, you became a Major General in the United States Marine Reserve, if I'm not mistaken.
McMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: So, once again we see the real impact the military has had on your life.
McMATH: Yeah. I was in Guadal Canal. When I was not in Guadal Canal the first phase.
PRYOR: I see.
McMATH: Guadal Canal was pretty well secure by the time we got there. We used Guadal Canal as a space to go up to New Georgia and Bellalabella, Gunvenville. And we had a lot of activity in Guadal Canal. We still had conflicts and so forth but the big fighting was over when I got over there.
PRYOR: Right. Well, Governor, your military career is one thing and your legal career. Let's talk a little bit about that political career. Let's talk about when you leave the Marines. You come back and you come back to Hot Springs, as you come to Garland County, Arkansas. Tell us about Garland County and what was that? 1945 when you came back.
McMATH: Came back in '45, that's correct.
PRYOR: Tell us about Garland County. What was going on?
McMATH: Well, Garland County, of course, as I previously stated, we moved there when I was ten (10) years of age and so I stayed there through high school and, of course kept contact with Hot Springs and certainly until I went into the Marine Corp and the situation in Hot Springs from a political standpoint was, to say the least was sad, was tragic. We had illegal gambling in Hot Springs and it wasn't just the gambling per se that was so bad, really evil but in order to operate there illegally, the machine had to control the election machinery, appoint the judges and clerks, the elected commission and so forth and so that they could control all law enforcement officials, the mayor, Their prosecuting attorney, the circuit judge...
PRYOR: Up and down the line.
McMATH: ...up and down the line. See? And they selected the Grand Jurors and they selected the Petty Jurors and if you had a lawsuit over in the Municipal Court, hey, you had to be on the right side if you were going to get anything like justice or if you had a case out of Circuit Court out at the Court House, if the opposition had an interest in the other side, well, you were in trouble because they selected the Jurors and the Jurors came from people downtown, the casinos, the bookies, the houses of ill-fame and so forth or businesses who relied with the administration and beholding to them for operations. They could do you in and so forth. They could raise your taxes or if you're in a certain business that required a license, they could make it difficult for you to get license or the license might be revoked and if you persisted in opposing them, you'd be in serious trouble.
PRYOR: So, here you were in your early thirties.
McMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: You'd come back. You'd located in Hot Springs, Arkansas and all of a sudden you look around and you see that there is a machine that is a machine county and that there's an individual by the name of Leo McCloughlin. Who is Leo McCloughlin? Who was he?
McMATH: Well, Leo was a very personable guy, had great charisma, had great ability and he'd gone to law school out at Tulane and he was elected Mayor. He was a colorful guy. He wore a straw hat turned up in the front and had a boutonniere on all the time, dressed immaculately. He had two (2) horses named Scotch and Soda. He'd hitch them up to a buggy and ride down through Central Avenue to be admired by vassels and so forth. See? And he was an excellent speaker. He could really rouse a lot, you know, and when they had a political campaign he was interested in, he'd have everybody come over to the auditorium and he'd give them a speech and they'd get their instruction. And sometimes he'd go out and he'd try a lawsuit. Now, he practiced law.
PRYOR: But he didn't hold an office, did he?
McMATH: He was the Mayor.
PRYOR: He was the Mayor at that time?
McMATH: Mayor. He had been a Mayor for many years. Yes he was the Mayor.
PRYOR: That's right.
McMATH: So, he presided as the Mayor and his Second Lieutenant was the Municipal Judge. See? The Municipal Judge and so they kind of ran things. And, as I say, if you had a case out at Circuit Court and he was on the other side you were in trouble probably. So, there were other GIs who had come back and we weren't intimidated, so to speak, and we felt that we'd been fighting for freedom around the world and we said to use a little of it at home. So...
PRYOR: Did you get these other GIs together?
McMATH: Yeah, I got them together.
PRYOR: What did you do? Did you meet at your home? Did you go to the Court House? You couldn't get in the Court House because those were all his people, I imagine.
McMATH: Well, there was a good citizen by the Earl Ricks.
PRYOR: Earl Ricks.
McMATH: Earl Ricks and another citizen by the name of Raymond Clinton, the uncle of the President. They had a Clinton/Ricks Buick Agency. And they had a huge garage and so we held out meetings in the Ricks/Clinton garage. And of course...
PRYOR: I don't imagine they got to sell very many cars to the city...
McMATH: No.
PRYOR: ...with the Mayor McCloughlin.
McMATH: So, that's where we met most of the time.
PRYOR: Right. Well, did you have to meet in secret?
McMATH: No, we didn't meet in secret. We kept our flags flying.
PRYOR: Is this what is known as the GI Revolution?
McMATH: That was the GI Revolution.
PRYOR: And most of the people involved were young men like yourself and maybe young women who had served their country and came...
McMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: ...who had come back.
McMATH: That's right. And they weren't in business. They couldn't be closed down. Their licenses couldn't be revoked and so forth and we just wanted to make a change and we thought that the time was right to do it.
PRYOR: And so you ran for...
McMATH: I ran for...
PRYOR: And so you ran for - what was your base? You ran for Prosecuting Attorney.
McMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: Was there an incumbent Prosecuting Attorney?
McMATH: Yes. Now we had a candidate for every spot, from Constable on up as the GI candidate and we ran, I guess it was in the primary, the primary was in '46 and we were, I was the only one elected in the primary. And I was elected because Montgomery County was a part of that judicial district, the 18th Judicial District and I swept Montgomery County to make up for what counts, you know, the count in Garland and some how the telephone communication between Malvern and Hot Springs were cut. So, the people in Garland County didn't know and it was too late how many votes that they needed in order to overcome the votes from Montgomery County. And so, we organized an independent party and all the candidates, the GI candidates who had been defeated ran an independents for the offices that they'd run for in the primary.
PRYOR: Didn't have really a Republican Party at that time.
McMATH: No, we had no Republican Party.
PRYOR: We had one Republican in Camden at that time. Only one person. Things have changed a lot.
McMATH: Judge Isley's grandfather and father were probably the only Republicans there and they was a lawyer by the name of Richard Ryan who also was a Republican. There were others that we didn't know about. Anyway we organized the independent party and the candidates all ran and of course, in the primary, you'll recall in the primary you had to get your poll tax. That was when you had to get your poll tax.
PRYOR: Yeah, we want to talk about the poll tax after a while.
McMATH: You had to get a year before. See? And so the people then particularly weren't interested in elections. They thought, well, my votes is not going to count. It's not going to do any good anyway but then when I won, see, people got interested. They thought, well maybe there's a chance. So, we organized a drive to get the poll tax for the general election and you could, as I recall, you could get the poll tax for the general election 20 days before the election. See?
PRYOR: Before the election.
McMATH: So, the women particularly got spread out and called people to the polls and got on the telephone and of course, we swept the field in the general election, elected everybody. See?
PRYOR: So, the whole slate, that was the GI revolution had taken place.
McMATH: The whole slate. That was the GI revolution. That's right.
PRYOR: And that was in 1946.
McMATH: Okay.
PRYOR: Speaking of lawyers at that time, I've always heard, and I knew him eventually. I served with him in the State Legislature. A man I admired a great deal. He's a very complex man, I might say, Nathan Shoenfeld. Nathan was sort of an ally of yours at that time?
McMATH: Nathan was one of my closest friends.
PRYOR: That is correct. He was a brilliant man.
McMATH: He was smart.
PRYOR: Wasn't he a Harvard Law School?
McMATH: I don't remember what his school was. It was Harvard or anyway, he was a brilliant guy and he was a tremendous help.
PRYOR: So, in all the election machinery...
McMATH: So, in that election, I neglected to say, that in the general election, of course, we avoided those illegal poll taxes. We brought suit in the United States Federal Court and we were able to get the issue in Federal Court because I had a friend in Pine Bluff, named of Pat Mullis, who volunteered to run as an independent. File as an independent. See? And it gave the Federal Court jurisdiction over the issue because a Federal Office, a Congressman was going to be voted on. And so we threw out maybe 3,000, 4,000 of those illegal poll taxes and made it possible.
PRYOR: Now, if I'm not mistaken Dr. Robert A. Lefler at the University of Arkansas Law School, the Venerable Dean of the Law School and probably the best known man in legal circles in our history. Dr. Lefler also became a semi-advisor to you and Nathan Shoenfeld and the other people who were attempting to bring back...
McMATH: That's correct. We had, I had a close relationship with Dr. Lefler.
PRYOR: Yes. And you had been a student...
McMATH: Yes, with his brother Eli Lefler.
PRYOR: Yes.
McMATH: And I got to know him real well when I was a student. Of course, he was a tremendous teacher. A great lawyer and one of the things that I was trying to start as Governor, that I did, I appointed him to the Supreme Court. He always wanted to serve on the Supreme Court.
PRYOR: Great man.
McMATH: He had run at one time, you know, buy he wasn't politically inclined. He was a student. And this made it possible for him to conduct this judge's school in New York, to conduct an annual seminar for newly elected judges.
PRYOR: He flew back and forth to New York all the time.
McMATH: A remarkable thing to do. A remarkable man.
DAVID: I hope some day that the historians will give him a very, very exalted praise in Arkansas.
McMATH: Have you met his son?
PRYOR: Oh, yes. Know him well.
McMATH: Do you know he speak Japanese?
PRYOR: He speaks Japanese and he's going to teach a course at Harvard in the next several months. He's going to teach. He's a wonderful young man and our legal profession is lucky to have him. So, what did Sid McMath his first few weeks at a Prosecutor, Prosecuting Attorney in Garland County?
McMATH: Well, of course, the first thing we do we convene a Grand Jury to investigate the gambling operations and see what their earnings were and see what they did with the money and so forth and of course, we closed down all the illegal gambling in Hot Springs. They had the race track but that was a legal operation. And we...
PRYOR: The casinos were closed down.
McMATH: The casinos, the bookies, everything were closed down. That was the first thing we did and then we had a few cases to prosecute and then I started campaigning for Governor.
PRYOR: And you ran for Governor two (2) years later.
McMATH: Two (2) years later.
PRYOR: 1948?
McMATH: 1948.
PRYOR: Okay. So, who was the Governor of Arkansas at that time? Ben Laney.
McMATH: Ben Laney. Of course, Ben Laney, we had some differences but, you know, the equalization plan, the distribution of funds.
PRYOR: The Revenue Specialization Act.
McMATH: The Revenue Specialization Act. You know, you can't spend more money than you take in.
PRYOR: That's right.
McMATH: That was a tremendous boom and he was responsible for that.
PRYOR: Right.
McMATH: That was in his administration.
PRYOR: I think that's how he got the name "Business Ben."
McMATH: Business Ben. We had this direction and he was running on his record as a businessman and his people were bragging about how he had cut taxes. And so we did a little research on how much cut taxes that he had reduced and, of course, I liked Ben. He was a very personable guy and we found out he had reduced taxes on lightning rods, bee hives and buggy whips. So, that was our theme. So, it was lightning rods, bee hives and buggy whips.
PRYOR: That is a great Arkansas political story. Ben Laney from Camden. In fact, our homes were next door to the Laneys and our families would sort of intermingle there to some extent.
McMATH: So, Ben Laney, in 1948 was involved with the DixieCrats.
PRYOR: That's right. And we want to talk about the DixieCrats after while. Ben Laney became very infatuated with the Democrats and at one time, I understand that Strom Thurman...
McMATH: Do you mean the DixieCrats?
PRYOR: The DixieCrats. Strom Thurman, when he walked out of the convention, I guess he would have been Governor of South Carolina at that time.
McMATH: Strom Thurman, yeah, I guess so.
PRYOR: And he, at one time, maybe he even wanted Ben Laney to become his running mate on the DixieCrat ticket for President. You did a very courageous thing in 1948 and here you were not Governor. You were the Governor elect. You'd been elected in the primary and we were faced with the decision in our country of Thomas Dewey or Harry Truman and in 1948. That every one, every one assumed that Thomas Dewey would just clobber Harry Truman and defeat him and send him off into obscurity but Harry Truman won that race. Arkansas was one of the very few southern states that remained loyal to the National Democratic ticket. Now, why was that?
McMATH: Well, Truman, at that time, was unpopular principally because of the civil rights program and the DixieCrats, as you indicate, when they were in the convention, Strom Thurman, Fielding Wright, Ben Laney and so forth were in the Democratic convention in Chicago and they were unhappy about the platform and so forth. So, they withdrew from the convention and I think they went to either Montgomery, Alabama or Jackson, Mississippi. I don't remember exactly which one it was and nominated Fielding Wright as President and Strom Thurman as Vice President and Governor Laney chaired that DixieCrat meeting. See? Well...
PRYOR: You don't think they flew the Confederate flag here and there, do you?
McMATH: Yeah, but as you know, as you pointed out, all the polls indicated that Truman would be defeated and no one thought he would win except Harry Truman. And he was a great President and I imagine we'll have an opportunity to talk about him.
PRYOR: I'd love to talk about your relationship.
McMATH: But as soon as I was nominated in '48, one of the things that I did immediately and two (2) or three (3) things that I took on but I feel that the most important thing I did was start campaigning for President Truman. And we were able to carry Arkansas by a real good vote, a majority vote and as I remember we were the only southern state that stayed in the Democratic party. Maybe, North Carolina I don't guess was considered a southern state, a deep southern state, but anyway Arkansas stayed in the Democratic party and President Truman appreciated that and he came to Arkansas several times.
PRYOR: There's a fabulous picture of you and President Truman walking down Main Street and he had on a white suit and a Panama hat and you were in a dark suit with your red famous red tie and y'all were spiffy. I'll tell you that. That's a great political.
McMATH: Bob McCord took that picture. Bob McCord took that picture and it won a national award...
PRYOR: It's a great picture. It says so much about that era.
McMATH: Yeah. You know, that was the 35th Division reunion. His old Army outfit. You know, Truman was a Captain in the First World War, you know. There's a National Guard out there. And so he always went to their conventions and he always marched with the troops. So, on this occasion he came to Arkansas and we marched down Main Street as you indicated in front of the troops and when we got down to Markham, we turned west or left on Markham and went on up to the old Marion Hotel.
PRYOR: I want to ask you about that. They say that you had a private audience with President Truman. Could you tell on the television about what you and Truman did or talked about?
McMATH: I think so. I think we can tell about it.
PRYOR: You were in the Marion Hotel.
McMATH: Marion Hotel in the Presidential Suite, the Presidential Suite and you didn't have all the entourage around the President that you have now. So, we had a quiet visit. It was in July or it was in the summer. I think it was July. We went into the suites and he said, "Governor, how would you like to have a drink?" I wasn't about to turn him down.
PRYOR: Wow. The President of the United States.
McMATH: I wasn't about to turn him down. I said, "That's fine, Mr. President." He said, "Well, how about Bourbon and branch water?" "Great." He said, "Well, you're going to be waited on by the highest paid bar tender in the world."
PRYOR: That is...
McMATH: Well, I looked around and there wasn't anybody but the two of us
PRYOR: So, Harry Truman poured you a drink.
McMATH: He gets behind the bar and he took one of the low ball glasses and he poured half of Bourbon and half of water. And we sat down to visit for 45 minutes to an hour. Talked, he talked, I listened. He wanted an attentive ear and I provided it for him and it was a very...
PRYOR: Did you talk about the upcoming election that he was going through?
McMATH: Actually...
PRYOR: Actually this was '49. Actually this was after he had defeated Dewey.
McMATH: That's right. And old Dewey, you talk about pictures. Do you remember the Chicago Herald?
PRYOR: Oh, yeah.
McMATH: That big headline "Dewey defeats Truman" and the picture of Truman holding that up.
PRYOR: Oh, he loved that.
McMATH: That big, big smile.
PRYOR: He was rubbing that in, wasn't he? He was rubbing it in because of course, he was so controversial, Harry Truman as a President.
McMATH: Yeah he was.
PRYOR: But he was tough. Wasn't he a tough pine knot?
McMATH: He never took a poll and he had a sign on his desk, that said, "The buck stops here."
PRYOR: "The buck stops here" and he didn't blame anything when something went wrong.
McMATH: That's right and nobody thought he'd amount to anything.
PRYOR: Right.
McMATH: They thought he was just a penny grass politician.
PRYOR: Right. But from Kansas City...
McMATH: But he had great character.
PRYOR: Yes, sir.
McMATH: And he was ran a good state government and he was for the people.
PRYOR: And furthermore he knew and understood history. He was a historian. Harry Truman was a historian.
McMATH: He sure was.
PRYOR: And by the way, we're trying to do that right now. And so we're trying to have Arkansas history taught in all of our schools and we hope our people will get behind that effort. We're trying desperately. We've gone through now a generation and not taught Arkansas history.
McMATH: David, that's one of the finest things you can do.
PRYOR: Well, we need to do that.
McMATH: We don't, like I was telling you about going to Bussey.
PRYOR: Right.
McMATH: In the morning when we would go to school, the first thing we'd do, we'd sing the Star Spangle Banner, pledge allegiance to the flag and sing Arkansas.
PRYOR: That's right.
McMATH: That's a great song and I don't guess the kids sing it any more.
PRYOR: We sometimes have great rivalries with our friends in Texas and no question about that. We have had in the past and will have in the future but there's one thing about Texans that I admire. They're proud of their state and one reason I think they have an excessive amount of pride is because they know its history and they know the state's history. They know where they came from. They know who they are and as Dr. Gatewood at the University of Arkansas always says, "It's time we start defining ourselves and not let everyone else do it for us."
McMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: So, I'm really hope that our state will get behind this effort and we're going to really make an effort.
McMATH: That's great. You know Arkansas needs to be proud of their state and no state has had a more fabulous, colorful event in the history of Arkansas and if you know our history you have to be proud of the state.
PRYOR: That is correct. So, here you are, you were ..
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TRANSCRIBED BY:
PATSY BILLINGS
8308 KEATS DRIVE
LITTLE ROCK, AR 72209
501-562-5267
email: billings@sitemall.net
PRYOR: Well, Governor, you went back into the Marines there. I believe you took your commission, so to speak.
McMATH: Yes.
PRYOR: You had had the Reserve and then you went back in to active duty a year before Pearl Harbor.
McMATH: Right.
PRYOR: What were you doing on Pearl Harbor Day, by the way? You remember that day. All of us do.
McMATH: Yeah. After I went home, as you mentioned, as we mentioned, I went back in in August of 1940, a year before Pearl Harbor and the reason I went back in, I felt obliged to and then I had a reserve commission. And so, when I was getting out of the Corp in 1937, a Colonel, Captain Louie Chesty Fuller, one of the most famous Marines ever, highly decorated, came by my quarters to see me. And he said, "Sandy", he called Scotch men "Sandy", he said, "I can understand you going home to marry your sweetheart and to practice law but let me tell you something", he said, "You need to take a reserve commission because we're going to war." And that was in 1937.
PRYOR: Four (4) years.
McMATH: He foresaw four (4) years before the war against Japan.
PRYOR: And he even thought it to and predicted it to be Japan, is that right?
McMATH: That's right. That's right. He thought it was Japan and the Marine Corp was getting psychologically prepared for a war against Japan. See? At that time, of course, the Marine Corp was a small organization. They had only about 17,000 Marines and at the end of the war they had five (5) divisions, you know. But anyway, and so, I took the commission and went back in to the Marine Corp. I went through a refresher course and then I stayed on at Quanaco at the Marine Training School there, training second lieutenants, officer candidates for two (2) years. And Elaine joined me in Quanaco and we had our son in Quanaco. Sandy was born there.
PRYOR: Sandy. Okay.
McMATH: Yeah, and then she died. She died on our fifth wedding anniversary.
PRYOR: And what age was she at that time?
McMATH: She was 25.
PRYOR: What a tragedy.
McMATH: And so, and then I requested overseas duty. And General Shepherd was the commander of the school at the time. Lemmel Shepherd. He subsequently became Commandant of the Marine Corp and I had put in three (3) applications for a transfer. The third time, the application I put in, he sent for me and he says, and of course I went in and Lou was standing in front of the desk. He said "McMath, how long would it take you to pack altogether?" I said, "I've got it together, sir." And he said, "You'll get on the next bus to New Miller, North Carolina. You're going to join the Third Regiment, you're going to join the Third Marine Division and you're going to the Solomens."
PRYOR: My goodness.
McMATH: So, I went down and joined the Third Marine Regiment and we were just putting it together and then we went on out to the Pacific area.
PRYOR: The military has always been an important part of Sidney McMath's life.
McMATH: It has.
PRYOR: Because it's always been a very meaningful part, I should say, in your life and also in your career you've had and just recently you were saluted on Flag Day by the local citizens here and it's really, in fact, it seems like every time I pick up the paper or turn on the TV, here's Governor McMath once again being saluted by some group, be it at the Old State House, Convention Center or the Bar Association or a group of military people. And so, it's kind of a McMath renascence period, I believe. It's a grand tribute to you, sir.
McMATH: Somebody discovered I was still around.
PRYOR: Well, it's a grand tribute to you.
McMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: And really a wonderful thing.
McMATH: Well, the military was, it was an important part of my life and it was a privilege to serve and I feel it's my greatest contribution, if I made a contribution, I made some contribution, was as a training officer. At Quanaco I trained for about two (2) years. I was training officer candidates and not only were they outstanding youngsters, honor students from colleges and so forth, some of them went on to be Senators, Judges and so forth. As a matter of fact I tried a case about five (5) years ago before a Judge who was one of my students in officer candidate school in Quanaco.
PRYOR: What a small world.
McMATH: And then I went, we went overseas, the Marines landed in Solomens in August, 1942, the first Marine Division and we were to join the first Marine Division but en route we were diverted to America Samoa. You know, that was a base of really operations in that part of the world and to protect it against the Japanese who were moving south towards New Zealand and Australia. So, as soon as I got ashore I said, "Well, I'm sure I'm going to get a company or a battalion since I was a Major by then." And they gave me word that I was going to be the training officers for jungle warfare school.
PRYOR: Oh, my. Well, that was important.
McMATH: So, we set up a jungle warfare school and put the non-commissioned officers and the junior officers or the Third Marine Regiment through the jungle warfare school. See? And then, of course, after that I was made Operations Officer for the Third Marine Regiment and that's where we were.
PRYOR: So, you saw some real combat at Guadal Canal, Guam, Gugandel, in the Solomon Island Chain and the Pacific Theater, so to speak and here you come out of the Marines and you are decorated with the Legion of Merit, the Silver Star. You are now a Major, you became a Major General in the United States Marine Reserve, if I'm not mistaken.
McMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: So, once again we see the real impact the military has had on your life.
McMATH: Yeah. I was in Guadal Canal. When I was not in Guadal Canal the first phase.
PRYOR: I see.
McMATH: Guadal Canal was pretty well secure by the time we got there. We used Guadal Canal as a space to go up to New Georgia and Bellalabella, Gunvenville. And we had a lot of activity in Guadal Canal. We still had conflicts and so forth but the big fighting was over when I got over there.
PRYOR: Right. Well, Governor, your military career is one thing and your legal career. Let's talk a little bit about that political career. Let's talk about when you leave the Marines. You come back and you come back to Hot Springs, as you come to Garland County, Arkansas. Tell us about Garland County and what was that? 1945 when you came back.
McMATH: Came back in '45, that's correct.
PRYOR: Tell us about Garland County. What was going on?
McMATH: Well, Garland County, of course, as I previously stated, we moved there when I was ten (10) years of age and so I stayed there through high school and, of course kept contact with Hot Springs and certainly until I went into the Marine Corp and the situation in Hot Springs from a political standpoint was, to say the least was sad, was tragic. We had illegal gambling in Hot Springs and it wasn't just the gambling per se that was so bad, really evil but in order to operate there illegally, the machine had to control the election machinery, appoint the judges and clerks, the elected commission and so forth and so that they could control all law enforcement officials, the mayor, Their prosecuting attorney, the circuit judge...
PRYOR: Up and down the line.
McMATH: ...up and down the line. See? And they selected the Grand Jurors and they selected the Petty Jurors and if you had a lawsuit over in the Municipal Court, hey, you had to be on the right side if you were going to get anything like justice or if you had a case out of Circuit Court out at the Court House, if the opposition had an interest in the other side, well, you were in trouble because they selected the Jurors and the Jurors came from people downtown, the casinos, the bookies, the houses of ill-fame and so forth or businesses who relied with the administration and beholding to them for operations. They could do you in and so forth. They could raise your taxes or if you're in a certain business that required a license, they could make it difficult for you to get license or the license might be revoked and if you persisted in opposing them, you'd be in serious trouble.
PRYOR: So, here you were in your early thirties.
McMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: You'd come back. You'd located in Hot Springs, Arkansas and all of a sudden you look around and you see that there is a machine that is a machine county and that there's an individual by the name of Leo McCloughlin. Who is Leo McCloughlin? Who was he?
McMATH: Well, Leo was a very personable guy, had great charisma, had great ability and he'd gone to law school out at Tulane and he was elected Mayor. He was a colorful guy. He wore a straw hat turned up in the front and had a boutonniere on all the time, dressed immaculately. He had two (2) horses named Scotch and Soda. He'd hitch them up to a buggy and ride down through Central Avenue to be admired by vassels and so forth. See? And he was an excellent speaker. He could really rouse a lot, you know, and when they had a political campaign he was interested in, he'd have everybody come over to the auditorium and he'd give them a speech and they'd get their instruction. And sometimes he'd go out and he'd try a lawsuit. Now, he practiced law.
PRYOR: But he didn't hold an office, did he?
McMATH: He was the Mayor.
PRYOR: He was the Mayor at that time?
McMATH: Mayor. He had been a Mayor for many years. Yes he was the Mayor.
PRYOR: That's right.
McMATH: So, he presided as the Mayor and his Second Lieutenant was the Municipal Judge. See? The Municipal Judge and so they kind of ran things. And, as I say, if you had a case out at Circuit Court and he was on the other side you were in trouble probably. So, there were other GIs who had come back and we weren't intimidated, so to speak, and we felt that we'd been fighting for freedom around the world and we said to use a little of it at home. So...
PRYOR: Did you get these other GIs together?
McMATH: Yeah, I got them together.
PRYOR: What did you do? Did you meet at your home? Did you go to the Court House? You couldn't get in the Court House because those were all his people, I imagine.
McMATH: Well, there was a good citizen by the Earl Ricks.
PRYOR: Earl Ricks.
McMATH: Earl Ricks and another citizen by the name of Raymond Clinton, the uncle of the President. They had a Clinton/Ricks Buick Agency. And they had a huge garage and so we held out meetings in the Ricks/Clinton garage. And of course...
PRYOR: I don't imagine they got to sell very many cars to the city...
McMATH: No.
PRYOR: ...with the Mayor McCloughlin.
McMATH: So, that's where we met most of the time.
PRYOR: Right. Well, did you have to meet in secret?
McMATH: No, we didn't meet in secret. We kept our flags flying.
PRYOR: Is this what is known as the GI Revolution?
McMATH: That was the GI Revolution.
PRYOR: And most of the people involved were young men like yourself and maybe young women who had served their country and came...
McMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: ...who had come back.
McMATH: That's right. And they weren't in business. They couldn't be closed down. Their licenses couldn't be revoked and so forth and we just wanted to make a change and we thought that the time was right to do it.
PRYOR: And so you ran for...
McMATH: I ran for...
PRYOR: And so you ran for - what was your base? You ran for Prosecuting Attorney.
McMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: Was there an incumbent Prosecuting Attorney?
McMATH: Yes. Now we had a candidate for every spot, from Constable on up as the GI candidate and we ran, I guess it was in the primary, the primary was in '46 and we were, I was the only one elected in the primary. And I was elected because Montgomery County was a part of that judicial district, the 18th Judicial District and I swept Montgomery County to make up for what counts, you know, the count in Garland and some how the telephone communication between Malvern and Hot Springs were cut. So, the people in Garland County didn't know and it was too late how many votes that they needed in order to overcome the votes from Montgomery County. And so, we organized an independent party and all the candidates, the GI candidates who had been defeated ran an independents for the offices that they'd run for in the primary.
PRYOR: Didn't have really a Republican Party at that time.
McMATH: No, we had no Republican Party.
PRYOR: We had one Republican in Camden at that time. Only one person. Things have changed a lot.
McMATH: Judge Isley's grandfather and father were probably the only Republicans there and they was a lawyer by the name of Richard Ryan who also was a Republican. There were others that we didn't know about. Anyway we organized the independent party and the candidates all ran and of course, in the primary, you'll recall in the primary you had to get your poll tax. That was when you had to get your poll tax.
PRYOR: Yeah, we want to talk about the poll tax after a while.
McMATH: You had to get a year before. See? And so the people then particularly weren't interested in elections. They thought, well, my votes is not going to count. It's not going to do any good anyway but then when I won, see, people got interested. They thought, well maybe there's a chance. So, we organized a drive to get the poll tax for the general election and you could, as I recall, you could get the poll tax for the general election 20 days before the election. See?
PRYOR: Before the election.
McMATH: So, the women particularly got spread out and called people to the polls and got on the telephone and of course, we swept the field in the general election, elected everybody. See?
PRYOR: So, the whole slate, that was the GI revolution had taken place.
McMATH: The whole slate. That was the GI revolution. That's right.
PRYOR: And that was in 1946.
McMATH: Okay.
PRYOR: Speaking of lawyers at that time, I've always heard, and I knew him eventually. I served with him in the State Legislature. A man I admired a great deal. He's a very complex man, I might say, Nathan Shoenfeld. Nathan was sort of an ally of yours at that time?
McMATH: Nathan was one of my closest friends.
PRYOR: That is correct. He was a brilliant man.
McMATH: He was smart.
PRYOR: Wasn't he a Harvard Law School?
McMATH: I don't remember what his school was. It was Harvard or anyway, he was a brilliant guy and he was a tremendous help.
PRYOR: So, in all the election machinery...
McMATH: So, in that election, I neglected to say, that in the general election, of course, we avoided those illegal poll taxes. We brought suit in the United States Federal Court and we were able to get the issue in Federal Court because I had a friend in Pine Bluff, named of Pat Mullis, who volunteered to run as an independent. File as an independent. See? And it gave the Federal Court jurisdiction over the issue because a Federal Office, a Congressman was going to be voted on. And so we threw out maybe 3,000, 4,000 of those illegal poll taxes and made it possible.
PRYOR: Now, if I'm not mistaken Dr. Robert A. Lefler at the University of Arkansas Law School, the Venerable Dean of the Law School and probably the best known man in legal circles in our history. Dr. Lefler also became a semi-advisor to you and Nathan Shoenfeld and the other people who were attempting to bring back...
McMATH: That's correct. We had, I had a close relationship with Dr. Lefler.
PRYOR: Yes. And you had been a student...
McMATH: Yes, with his brother Eli Lefler.
PRYOR: Yes.
McMATH: And I got to know him real well when I was a student. Of course, he was a tremendous teacher. A great lawyer and one of the things that I was trying to start as Governor, that I did, I appointed him to the Supreme Court. He always wanted to serve on the Supreme Court.
PRYOR: Great man.
McMATH: He had run at one time, you know, buy he wasn't politically inclined. He was a student. And this made it possible for him to conduct this judge's school in New York, to conduct an annual seminar for newly elected judges.
PRYOR: He flew back and forth to New York all the time.
McMATH: A remarkable thing to do. A remarkable man.
DAVID: I hope some day that the historians will give him a very, very exalted praise in Arkansas.
McMATH: Have you met his son?
PRYOR: Oh, yes. Know him well.
McMATH: Do you know he speak Japanese?
PRYOR: He speaks Japanese and he's going to teach a course at Harvard in the next several months. He's going to teach. He's a wonderful young man and our legal profession is lucky to have him. So, what did Sid McMath his first few weeks at a Prosecutor, Prosecuting Attorney in Garland County?
McMATH: Well, of course, the first thing we do we convene a Grand Jury to investigate the gambling operations and see what their earnings were and see what they did with the money and so forth and of course, we closed down all the illegal gambling in Hot Springs. They had the race track but that was a legal operation. And we...
PRYOR: The casinos were closed down.
McMATH: The casinos, the bookies, everything were closed down. That was the first thing we did and then we had a few cases to prosecute and then I started campaigning for Governor.
PRYOR: And you ran for Governor two (2) years later.
McMATH: Two (2) years later.
PRYOR: 1948?
McMATH: 1948.
PRYOR: Okay. So, who was the Governor of Arkansas at that time? Ben Laney.
McMATH: Ben Laney. Of course, Ben Laney, we had some differences but, you know, the equalization plan, the distribution of funds.
PRYOR: The Revenue Specialization Act.
McMATH: The Revenue Specialization Act. You know, you can't spend more money than you take in.
PRYOR: That's right.
McMATH: That was a tremendous boom and he was responsible for that.
PRYOR: Right.
McMATH: That was in his administration.
PRYOR: I think that's how he got the name "Business Ben."
McMATH: Business Ben. We had this direction and he was running on his record as a businessman and his people were bragging about how he had cut taxes. And so we did a little research on how much cut taxes that he had reduced and, of course, I liked Ben. He was a very personable guy and we found out he had reduced taxes on lightning rods, bee hives and buggy whips. So, that was our theme. So, it was lightning rods, bee hives and buggy whips.
PRYOR: That is a great Arkansas political story. Ben Laney from Camden. In fact, our homes were next door to the Laneys and our families would sort of intermingle there to some extent.
McMATH: So, Ben Laney, in 1948 was involved with the DixieCrats.
PRYOR: That's right. And we want to talk about the DixieCrats after while. Ben Laney became very infatuated with the Democrats and at one time, I understand that Strom Thurman...
McMATH: Do you mean the DixieCrats?
PRYOR: The DixieCrats. Strom Thurman, when he walked out of the convention, I guess he would have been Governor of South Carolina at that time.
McMATH: Strom Thurman, yeah, I guess so.
PRYOR: And he, at one time, maybe he even wanted Ben Laney to become his running mate on the DixieCrat ticket for President. You did a very courageous thing in 1948 and here you were not Governor. You were the Governor elect. You'd been elected in the primary and we were faced with the decision in our country of Thomas Dewey or Harry Truman and in 1948. That every one, every one assumed that Thomas Dewey would just clobber Harry Truman and defeat him and send him off into obscurity but Harry Truman won that race. Arkansas was one of the very few southern states that remained loyal to the National Democratic ticket. Now, why was that?
McMATH: Well, Truman, at that time, was unpopular principally because of the civil rights program and the DixieCrats, as you indicate, when they were in the convention, Strom Thurman, Fielding Wright, Ben Laney and so forth were in the Democratic convention in Chicago and they were unhappy about the platform and so forth. So, they withdrew from the convention and I think they went to either Montgomery, Alabama or Jackson, Mississippi. I don't remember exactly which one it was and nominated Fielding Wright as President and Strom Thurman as Vice President and Governor Laney chaired that DixieCrat meeting. See? Well...
PRYOR: You don't think they flew the Confederate flag here and there, do you?
McMATH: Yeah, but as you know, as you pointed out, all the polls indicated that Truman would be defeated and no one thought he would win except Harry Truman. And he was a great President and I imagine we'll have an opportunity to talk about him.
PRYOR: I'd love to talk about your relationship.
McMATH: But as soon as I was nominated in '48, one of the things that I did immediately and two (2) or three (3) things that I took on but I feel that the most important thing I did was start campaigning for President Truman. And we were able to carry Arkansas by a real good vote, a majority vote and as I remember we were the only southern state that stayed in the Democratic party. Maybe, North Carolina I don't guess was considered a southern state, a deep southern state, but anyway Arkansas stayed in the Democratic party and President Truman appreciated that and he came to Arkansas several times.
PRYOR: There's a fabulous picture of you and President Truman walking down Main Street and he had on a white suit and a Panama hat and you were in a dark suit with your red famous red tie and y'all were spiffy. I'll tell you that. That's a great political.
McMATH: Bob McCord took that picture. Bob McCord took that picture and it won a national award...
PRYOR: It's a great picture. It says so much about that era.
McMATH: Yeah. You know, that was the 35th Division reunion. His old Army outfit. You know, Truman was a Captain in the First World War, you know. There's a National Guard out there. And so he always went to their conventions and he always marched with the troops. So, on this occasion he came to Arkansas and we marched down Main Street as you indicated in front of the troops and when we got down to Markham, we turned west or left on Markham and went on up to the old Marion Hotel.
PRYOR: I want to ask you about that. They say that you had a private audience with President Truman. Could you tell on the television about what you and Truman did or talked about?
McMATH: I think so. I think we can tell about it.
PRYOR: You were in the Marion Hotel.
McMATH: Marion Hotel in the Presidential Suite, the Presidential Suite and you didn't have all the entourage around the President that you have now. So, we had a quiet visit. It was in July or it was in the summer. I think it was July. We went into the suites and he said, "Governor, how would you like to have a drink?" I wasn't about to turn him down.
PRYOR: Wow. The President of the United States.
McMATH: I wasn't about to turn him down. I said, "That's fine, Mr. President." He said, "Well, how about Bourbon and branch water?" "Great." He said, "Well, you're going to be waited on by the highest paid bar tender in the world."
PRYOR: That is...
McMATH: Well, I looked around and there wasn't anybody but the two of us
PRYOR: So, Harry Truman poured you a drink.
McMATH: He gets behind the bar and he took one of the low ball glasses and he poured half of Bourbon and half of water. And we sat down to visit for 45 minutes to an hour. Talked, he talked, I listened. He wanted an attentive ear and I provided it for him and it was a very...
PRYOR: Did you talk about the upcoming election that he was going through?
McMATH: Actually...
PRYOR: Actually this was '49. Actually this was after he had defeated Dewey.
McMATH: That's right. And old Dewey, you talk about pictures. Do you remember the Chicago Herald?
PRYOR: Oh, yeah.
McMATH: That big headline "Dewey defeats Truman" and the picture of Truman holding that up.
PRYOR: Oh, he loved that.
McMATH: That big, big smile.
PRYOR: He was rubbing that in, wasn't he? He was rubbing it in because of course, he was so controversial, Harry Truman as a President.
McMATH: Yeah he was.
PRYOR: But he was tough. Wasn't he a tough pine knot?
McMATH: He never took a poll and he had a sign on his desk, that said, "The buck stops here."
PRYOR: "The buck stops here" and he didn't blame anything when something went wrong.
McMATH: That's right and nobody thought he'd amount to anything.
PRYOR: Right.
McMATH: They thought he was just a penny grass politician.
PRYOR: Right. But from Kansas City...
McMATH: But he had great character.
PRYOR: Yes, sir.
McMATH: And he was ran a good state government and he was for the people.
PRYOR: And furthermore he knew and understood history. He was a historian. Harry Truman was a historian.
McMATH: He sure was.
PRYOR: And by the way, we're trying to do that right now. And so we're trying to have Arkansas history taught in all of our schools and we hope our people will get behind that effort. We're trying desperately. We've gone through now a generation and not taught Arkansas history.
McMATH: David, that's one of the finest things you can do.
PRYOR: Well, we need to do that.
McMATH: We don't, like I was telling you about going to Bussey.
PRYOR: Right.
McMATH: In the morning when we would go to school, the first thing we'd do, we'd sing the Star Spangle Banner, pledge allegiance to the flag and sing Arkansas.
PRYOR: That's right.
McMATH: That's a great song and I don't guess the kids sing it any more.
PRYOR: We sometimes have great rivalries with our friends in Texas and no question about that. We have had in the past and will have in the future but there's one thing about Texans that I admire. They're proud of their state and one reason I think they have an excessive amount of pride is because they know its history and they know the state's history. They know where they came from. They know who they are and as Dr. Gatewood at the University of Arkansas always says, "It's time we start defining ourselves and not let everyone else do it for us."
McMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: So, I'm really hope that our state will get behind this effort and we're going to really make an effort.
McMATH: That's great. You know Arkansas needs to be proud of their state and no state has had a more fabulous, colorful event in the history of Arkansas and if you know our history you have to be proud of the state.
PRYOR: That is correct. So, here you are, you were ..
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TRANSCRIBED BY:
PATSY BILLINGS
8308 KEATS DRIVE
LITTLE ROCK, AR 72209
501-562-5267
email: billings@sitemall.net
SID McMATH - DAVID PRYOR transcript one
SID McMATH - DAVID PRYOR
SENATOR DAVID PRYOR: Good evening ladies and gentlemen. I'm David Pryor and we want to welcome you tonight to AETN to welcome one of Arkansas' most distinguished citizens. He's our guest on AETN tonight and he's going to discuss his fabulous career in politics, the military, and a law practice because his 88 years truly spans a significant part of Arkansas history. Of course, the person I'm speaking of is no other than Governor Sidney Sanders McMath, just experiencing his 88th birthday, he is with us this evening and we are very, very proud to welcome you, Governor McMath as our guest.
GOVERNOR SIDNEY SANDERS McMATH: Thank you very much. It's a privilege to be here and it's always a pleasure to appear with you Senator on any forum.
PRYOR: Well, thank you. I want to say that this interview may be a little shabby. This is the first time I have ever been an interviewer. Usually I have been, in the past, in some uncomfortable situations being the interviewee, being the one being interviewed but thank you for being patient with me.
MCMATH: Well, this is the first occasion that I've had to be questioned by a United States Senator.
PRYOR: Well, I will do my very best and we're just going visit tonight. We're going to talk about some Arkansas history and your role in Arkansas history and your role in the development of this State and some of the things that you have seen and some of the things that you've been a part of. Just a little bit of background, if I may, Governor, you were born down in Columbia County and I'm going to let you talk about some of these things in just a little bit, 88 years ago outside the community of Magnolia and then it was a community. In 1920, I think when you were about eight (8), ten (10) or 11 years old you moved from there to Hot Springs. Eventually you moved also to Smackover for a period of time in Union County. You did work in a grocery store and you've shined shoes. You've sold newspapers. You picked cotton and at one time, they say about you that you were so honored and proud to become a Boy Scout that you sold your most prized possession, your bicycle to buy a Boy Scout uniform. We'd like to hear about that after a while but what a career you've had and we've love for you to talk about some of those very early years and your remembrances of that time in Arkansas. And we would certainly like for you to expand on that for us.
MCMATH: Well, David, you know, I was born, as you say, 88 years ago, June the 14th and of course, that's the day when Uncle Sam unfurled the flag, you know, and run Old Glory up to the top of the flagpole.
PRYOR: Very appropriate.
MCMATH: So it's a good day to remember and I've always been happy about the association of my birthday with the flag but I was born in Columbia County on the Big Creek Bottom on the old McMath home place. My great grandfather, Sidney Smith McMath, was Sheriff in Columbia County and incidentally he was named after his great uncle, Sidney Smith of Texas, and he was famous in the family, at least, because he was killed at the battle of Goliad and he and his detachments were going to the rescue of the Alamo.
PRYOR: Wow. So, that is real history.
MCMATH: So, we are proud of that connection with Texas and so he was killed while he was the Sheriff. He went down to arrest some boot-leggers and there were three (3) of them and they got in to a gunfight and one of them had a Winchester rifle and they had a gunfight and he was killed. And so my grandmother, Lula Mae McMath, they had a large family, eight (8) children, boys and girls, and so they were all living on a farm at the time and of the age they could work and so they worked on the farm and kept the place going. And got the girls to school and the boys there until they went off to work but the place we lived on was a cabin on the old McMath home place and had been used by a tenant on the farm and we lived there for about five (5) years. And my sister and I were born there. She's two (2) years older than I am and we were born on the same day, there was two (2) years difference but I have some fond memories of that period in my life. And I've always tried to see how far back in my life I could remember an event, you know, and sometimes very difficult to do. I'm sure you know that but, you know, you get as old as I am, it's so hard to differentiate fiction from the truth. You don't know whether or not you dreamed it.
PRYOR: Our system just doesn't calibrate as well. I think those memories are there but it's harder to calibrate than to bring them out to the surface.
MCMATH: That's right. You know...
PRYOR: They call that a "senior moment".
MCMATH: Right. Right. Maybe you dreamed it or maybe somebody told you about it. If it's repeated enough, you know, it's ought to be part of your memory.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: But there are several instances during my childhood up to, at least, ten (10) years of age that I remember vividly which really had an impact on my life.
PRYOR: Tell us about it.
MCMATH: Well, you mentioned picking cotton. I picked cotton on a farm up to about, let's see, seven (7), eight (8) or nine (9) years of age, I guess, when I was picking cotton and I was a good cotton picker. I could pick a hundred pounds a day, you know. You got a $1.00 a pound. So, I'd get, I mean, a Cent ($.01) a pound, not a $1.00 a pound. I'd make a $1.00 a day.
PRYOR: A $1.00 a day.
MCMATH: And so I'd save my money and, of course...
PRYOR: That's how you bought that bicycle.
MCMATH: Well, that was Hot Springs.
PRYOR: Okay.
MCMATH: Well, anyway, I was saving my money and I kept it in a sack and when I got a certain amount, I'd make stacks of it and count it and I'd always look at the date in which it was made. I was told the older a piece of a coin was, the more valuable it was. So, I kept it as long as I could.
PRYOR: Well, that was a good way to save money.
MCMATH: I kept it as long as I could. But then after a while it's irresistible and spend it, you know. Of course, most of our things were bought through the Sears and Roebuck catalog. So, many of the things that people back at that time came from the Sears and Roebuck catalog. That was a big event in a year's life for the Sears and Roebuck to come along but then you can't select it and feel it and smell it and try it on and so forth.
PRYOR: Right. You could, at that time I think, order a home through Sears and Roebuck. You could order a pre-built home, I believe.
MCMATH: I suppose you could. You could certainly order everything else. But I decided I'd go down to a country store about two (2) miles from where we lived and I took some of my money with me and I was going to make some purchases. So, I went down and, of course, you've been in these country stores, you know, general stores, and they have everything.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: You know.
PRYOR: Yeah.
MCMATH: And they have cotton seed and meal and sugar and flour and coffee and canned goods and bananas and all of these smells blend together.
PRYOR: Right. A great aroma. A great aroma.
MCMATH: And then there's usually a lot of old men sitting around, a lot of them, a few old men, they were usually sitting around smoking a pipe and that pipe tobacco.
PRYOR: Right. Blends in.
MCMATH: Blends in and they've got coffee and so forth. So, I went in and I looked over everything real good and I remember pretty well what I purchased. The first I bought was a dog collar for my dog. I had a dog and his name was Buluga and we were real good companions. So, I bought him a dog collar and I got a pair of shoes. You had to try them on.
PRYOR: How much did a pair of shoes cost?
MCMATH: Oh, I don't know.
PRYOR: About $2.00?
MCMATH: About $2.00, yeah. It didn't cost very much. Of course, we wore shoes when it was cold weather. Didn't need them otherwise, you know. And I bought me a pair of blue jeans and I bought me a blue jean shirt and I got a big Florida orange. I got a great, big red apple. I got a Florida orange for my sister and a big apple for my sister and I bought some chocolate drops for my mother. She loved chocolate. So, I went home with those prized possessions.
PRYOR: And this was the first time to do any purchasing on your own.
MCMATH: From my cotton money, my cotton picking money, yeah. Well, of course, I had a chance to see how people lived.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: You know, we were really, it's sort of like depression, '28, '29, along in there and the '30s. We had a depression all the time and that part of South Arkansas, generally in the South, particularly in the rural areas because we still hadn't recovered from the Civil War.
PRYOR: If I'm not mistaken your father and your family, you were moving around so he could make a better living. You moved to Smackover and over in Union County and a couple of other communities and maybe even back down to Columbia County and then on to Hot Springs.
MCMATH: That's right. That's right. He was, my dad really didn't live farming but he lived horses and he liked to deal in cattle. So, he would trade and traffic in horses and cows and he would break horses and one of the reasons we went to Foreman was because it's on the Oklahoma line and he could have a great opportunity to trade in livestock and people would bring him horses to break and...
PRYOR: Well, did you ever have to break any horses?
MCMATH: No, I never had to break any horses but I had to ride one several times.
PRYOR: I'll bet you did.
MCMATH: My dad bought a horse sight unseen and he was over in Oklahoma, across the line, and the farmer told my dad that well, that horse you can hitch him behind your car and you can lead him home. My dad had a car with the top down and so forth and he said, "Well, I'll do that" and so he took me with him. And we finally found the farm where the horse was and we found the horse. My dad got acquainted with the horse. He talked to him and told him what was going to happen to get his confidence and so forth and all he brought with him was a halter and a rope. So, he put the halter on him and he tied him behind the car and we started for home. Well, the horse was very cooperative until we got off of his farm, the farm where he lived and then he sat back down. He sat back down. He was stubborn. He wouldn't go anywhere and so my dad tried several times to get him to cooperate and he wouldn't do it and he finally got a good idea. He said, "Well, you just ride him home." I was, I guess I was seven (7). And you will ride him home. I didn't' have a saddle, didn't have a bridle. So, he made an improvised bridle out of the halter. He tied one end of the halter and the other end, the loose end of the rope to the halter. I got on him. Well, my dad rode along with us for a little while and then he thought we were in good shape, so he went on home. But the horse and I had some differences but we finally made it home and it was a long ride bareback and when we got home my mother was glad to see me but she really gave him a tongue lashing.
PRYOR: I'll bet she did.
MCMATH: But he always bragged on me about that. He bragged on me and he bragged on me like he used to brag on one of his big dogs he had. He had a big dog when we lived on the farm, he just loved, one of the greatest dogs you've ever seen and that's what I was saying and so when he bragged on me as he bragged on that dog, well, I felt real good.
PRYOR: You know, this is the second time in our brief few moments together and your memory is phenomenal about all of this. It's amazing you can remember that but two (2) times you've mentioned "dogs" in our interview. Later on, don't let me forget that, because I am absent-minded, I want to ask you about "Old Red". I want to ask you about Old Red because I remember kind of growing up in one of your campaigns, about a campaign issue about Old Red living at the Governor's mansion. We'll get in to that, but, let's, if we could, let's move now to Hot Springs and you are now what? Twelve or so or in school system at Hot Springs.
MCMATH: David, let me, before we get to Hot Springs.
PRYOR: Sure. I was ten (10) years of age.
MCMATH: Let me say a word. You mentioned, we mentioned Bussey.
PRYOR: Uh-huh. Bussey, Arkansas.
MCMATH: Bussey, Arkansas. Bussey, Arkansas had about 50 people living there. It's a wonderful community, and the track, the train drove right through the town and our house was right next to the track and when a train came through there, as it did, it was a water stop sometimes but if it didn't stop, it sounded like it was going right through your living room. And we were talking about separating memories from imagination, dreams or something someone might have told you, there are some of the things about Bussey that I remember distinctly. One was I went to my first grade at school in Bussey. And it was a one (1) room school house. My mother walked me to school. We walked down a dirt road for about three (3) or four (4) miles and we got to the school house and about the time it was taking up. The teacher rang a bell and we all went in. We had about 25 students all in one room and I don't remember exactly what the preliminaries were because I wasn't paying attention to that. I was plotting my escape. I was going to get out of there. Well, as soon as the preliminaries were over, all the students went to their assigned seats. My mother left the school house and I went to a window to watch her clear the school ground and as soon as she got clear of the school ground I skee-daddled out. I left the school, I skee-daddled over to this railroad track which was a short cut home and I got on that railroad track and I hot-footed it towards home and there was one hazard I had to cross which was a swamp and in this swamp they had alligators and moccasins. So, I soft-pedaled over that swamp and then I ran home and my mother got home and I was sitting on the front porch.
PRYOR: You beat her home.
MCMATH: Yeah, I beat her home.
PRYOR: You beat her home.
MCMATH: Yeah, but anyway...
PRYOR: That is a great story.
MCMATH: ...she sent me back to school.
PRYOR: Tell the people where Bussey is.
MCMATH: Well, Bussey is, it's west of Magnolia.
PRYOR: It's in Columbia County.
MCMATH: Yeah, in Columbia County about ten (10) miles and then Taylor is south of Bussey and the little town is still there and the house that I lived in is still there. I was in there not long ago.
PRYOR: And also tell a story about you when you were growing up that the only way you could get from Magnolia to Taylor, which was to ride a horse.
MCMATH: Yeah.
MCMATH: The roads were so bad. You said, if I ever get to become Governor, I'm going to pave this road some day and sure enough you did.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: You did it when you were Governor.
MCMATH: When I was campaigning for Governor, I went down to Taylor and the road was so bad I had to ride my horse, rode my horse down there and, of course, you know, the newspaper people go along, they usually are, I said, "If I'm elected Governor, this is going to be the first to pave."
PRYOR: And I think that was too.
MCMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: We won't go in to the Governor's years yet but when you did become Governor, and speaking of rural communities like Taylor and Bussey, Smackover and others, I understand that when you became Governor there were eight (8) counties in our State that didn't have a mile of paved roads. Well, we're going to talk about that in just a moment. Let's move on to Hot Springs now. You're in the school system and you become sort of, you enjoyed debating and speech classes and you participated in some competitive speaking I believe here and there and did you have a teacher maybe that inspired you in this field?
MCMATH: Well, one of the greatest things that happened to me in my was our move to Hot Springs. They had an excellent school and Hot Springs is a cosmopolitan place. You met people from all different places and backgrounds and so forth and people came there from all over the world and, of course, you talk about working, I did all kinds of work in Hot Springs as a youngster. And I went to high school there.
PRYOR: And if I'm not mistaken you went to the Hot Springs High School and this particular high school has two (2) very, very famous graduates. One being Sidney Sanders McMath and the other is William Jefferson Clinton.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: So, there must be something in the water there.
MCMATH: They had some dedicated teachers.
PRYOR: Dedicated teachers.
MCMATH: And one of the teachers that we had was a music teacher, Elizabeth Bow, Elizabeth Bow. She was a excellent music teacher and she had a glee club and I signed up with the music department because there was so many girls in that class, very attractive girls. So, I thought I'd join the glee club and so she cast me in a musical and, of course we used the student body as a captive audience, you know, for try-outs, for rehearsals and so forth. And, so this was the rehearsal before the show, the night before the show and it came time for me to go center stage and sing my song. Well, I couldn't hit a note. I couldn't hit a note and I talked the song.
PRYOR: You talked through the song.
MCMATH: Yeah. Well, needless to say Ms. Bow got me out of her class and put me in the speech class, Lois Alexander, a great dramatic coach and speech teacher and so forth and so she encouraged me and she put me in a debate. We were going to, she told me one day, she said you're going to enter the debate down at the district meeting down at Ouachita and you'll have so and so as your partner and this is the subject and so forth. And I told her, well, I didn't think I could do that. She said, "You're going to do it or else." So, I did it and we won second place.
PRYOR: Wonderful.
MVMATH: And the fact that there were only two (2) entries and then then she gave me a declamation to enter in to the academic debate and it was in Little Rock and I remember the name of the oration. It was All Embracing America by Congressman William D. Upshaw. And so, I did that and then she put me in a one act play and it was the Valiant and again we used the student body as an audience. We just punished them to no end and so, some several years ago we had a class reunion and I talked to the group. I asked them, I said, "How many of you remember the Valiant?" All their went up and I said, "Well, now how many of you remember the closing lines?" And in unison, they said, "Cowards die many times before their death but the Valiant, they taste death only once."
PRYOR: That makes chill bumps.
MCMATH: So, when I went to the University of Arkansas I had two (2) things on my mind, military and politics.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: So, I kind of divided it.
PRYOR: You left Hot Springs High School and went for a period to Henderson.
MCMATH: Yeah. Well, that was two (2) terms. Yeah, Henderson Brown at that time, that's right..
PRYOR: Probably a Methodist school and, of course, now it is Henderson University, Henderson State University.
MCMATH: Well, now I went to Henderson, Henderson State for part of the time and they gave me a job and I went down there in order to prepare myself for a written examination to the Naval Academy. There was a Chief of Police, the National Park Police in Hot Springs, Richard L. Gaffney, and he had a Scout troop that I was a member of, the third Boy Scout troop in Hot Springs and he had a Boys Club and he was an unofficial recruiter for the Marine Corps. The Marine Corp was involved in Nicaragua at the time and he had all of these recruiting posters about the Marine Corp, see, and so forth. So, I got the idea I wanted to be a Marine and he gave me these posters and I painted my room with them. Well, he thought it would be a good idea if I went to the Naval Academy. So, Congressman D. D. Glover, a great man, a wonderful family.
PRYOR: From Malvern, I believe.
MCMATH: From Malvern, a wonderful family, gave an appointment to the Naval Academy. So, I went down to Henderson to kind of prep out on it and there's a wonderful lady down there that tried to help me with my math. You see, when I was in high school, when I got involved in dramatics, I neglected my science and math. See? So, it caught up with me.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: So, when I took my examination for the Naval Academy, I flunked it. I flunked it.
PRYOR: Because of the math. Or rather the lack of math.
MCMATH: Yeah, the lack of math. So, I saddled up and I went to the University of Arkansas and I signed up with the Reserve Officers Corp, you know, for a four (4) year tour and then I took my pre-law. And so I was involved in dramatics and the military and getting ready to go to law school at the University of Arkansas.
PRYOR: So, you went on to the University for some under-graduate work.
MCMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: And then you went to the law school at the University of Arkansas.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: By that time you'd had some drama. You'd been in some plays. You were in debate and speech and all of this seemed to be very good preparation for ultimately your two (2) careers, political, well, three (3) careers, the military, politics and law.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: And I think that's a grand, grand background for those professions.
MCMATH: I had a problem. I got the commission with the Marine Corp because they gave one (1) commission from each land grant college to the Marine Corp. Well, I got that but I had to complete my ROTC training camp in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. And I had to go to law school to get my law degree that summer to get my law degree. Well, the problem was that the first four (4) weeks, they ran simultaneously. The ROTC camp was at Fort Leavenworth. Of course, the law school was at Fayetteville. So, how was I going to do both? So, I had to scoot. So, I signed up in to law school. I put on my ROTC uniform and hitch-hiked to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Signed up there, spent a week, hitch-hiked back to Fayetteville, spent a week and back and forth for four (4) weeks. They never missed me at either place.
PRYOR: I'll declare. That's a wonderful story. That's a great story.
MCMATH: So, I got my commission in the Marine Corp and I got my law degree.
PRYOR: During this time, Governor, way back in the back of your mind, here you were, you were involved in your law school training and going to school and your ROTC, did you have politics in your mind? Did you think about politics? Did you think about some day running for an office.
MCMATH: Well, I thought about running for Governor when I was in high school and I was president of my freshman, sophomore, junior and senior classes and then, of course, at the University, I was president of the student body. So, I had it in my mind and, of course, to be in the military and to be in politics and to be a lawyer, and, you know, you don't know how you're going to work it in.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: And so I went in the Marine Corp and spent a year, 1936 and came home in '37. I came home to marry Elaine Brockington and at that time the Marine Corp, its' policy was that if you were a Second Lieutenant you couldn't married. You had to be in the Marine Corp two (2) years before you could get married and the policy that if the Marine Corp wanted you to have a bride they'd issue you one. So, I went on to marry Elaine and to practice law but that was in '37 and the paint of my shingle hadn't got dry and, of course the war began and I felt an obligation to go back in.
PRYOR: So, you actually went back in the Marine right before, a year before Pearl Harbor.
MCMATH: Yeah, that's right.
PRYOR: You went back August, 1940.
MCMATH: Yeah, August, 1940. I stayed in the Marine Corp until the war was over.
PRYOR:Right. Okay.
SENATOR DAVID PRYOR: Good evening ladies and gentlemen. I'm David Pryor and we want to welcome you tonight to AETN to welcome one of Arkansas' most distinguished citizens. He's our guest on AETN tonight and he's going to discuss his fabulous career in politics, the military, and a law practice because his 88 years truly spans a significant part of Arkansas history. Of course, the person I'm speaking of is no other than Governor Sidney Sanders McMath, just experiencing his 88th birthday, he is with us this evening and we are very, very proud to welcome you, Governor McMath as our guest.
GOVERNOR SIDNEY SANDERS McMATH: Thank you very much. It's a privilege to be here and it's always a pleasure to appear with you Senator on any forum.
PRYOR: Well, thank you. I want to say that this interview may be a little shabby. This is the first time I have ever been an interviewer. Usually I have been, in the past, in some uncomfortable situations being the interviewee, being the one being interviewed but thank you for being patient with me.
MCMATH: Well, this is the first occasion that I've had to be questioned by a United States Senator.
PRYOR: Well, I will do my very best and we're just going visit tonight. We're going to talk about some Arkansas history and your role in Arkansas history and your role in the development of this State and some of the things that you have seen and some of the things that you've been a part of. Just a little bit of background, if I may, Governor, you were born down in Columbia County and I'm going to let you talk about some of these things in just a little bit, 88 years ago outside the community of Magnolia and then it was a community. In 1920, I think when you were about eight (8), ten (10) or 11 years old you moved from there to Hot Springs. Eventually you moved also to Smackover for a period of time in Union County. You did work in a grocery store and you've shined shoes. You've sold newspapers. You picked cotton and at one time, they say about you that you were so honored and proud to become a Boy Scout that you sold your most prized possession, your bicycle to buy a Boy Scout uniform. We'd like to hear about that after a while but what a career you've had and we've love for you to talk about some of those very early years and your remembrances of that time in Arkansas. And we would certainly like for you to expand on that for us.
MCMATH: Well, David, you know, I was born, as you say, 88 years ago, June the 14th and of course, that's the day when Uncle Sam unfurled the flag, you know, and run Old Glory up to the top of the flagpole.
PRYOR: Very appropriate.
MCMATH: So it's a good day to remember and I've always been happy about the association of my birthday with the flag but I was born in Columbia County on the Big Creek Bottom on the old McMath home place. My great grandfather, Sidney Smith McMath, was Sheriff in Columbia County and incidentally he was named after his great uncle, Sidney Smith of Texas, and he was famous in the family, at least, because he was killed at the battle of Goliad and he and his detachments were going to the rescue of the Alamo.
PRYOR: Wow. So, that is real history.
MCMATH: So, we are proud of that connection with Texas and so he was killed while he was the Sheriff. He went down to arrest some boot-leggers and there were three (3) of them and they got in to a gunfight and one of them had a Winchester rifle and they had a gunfight and he was killed. And so my grandmother, Lula Mae McMath, they had a large family, eight (8) children, boys and girls, and so they were all living on a farm at the time and of the age they could work and so they worked on the farm and kept the place going. And got the girls to school and the boys there until they went off to work but the place we lived on was a cabin on the old McMath home place and had been used by a tenant on the farm and we lived there for about five (5) years. And my sister and I were born there. She's two (2) years older than I am and we were born on the same day, there was two (2) years difference but I have some fond memories of that period in my life. And I've always tried to see how far back in my life I could remember an event, you know, and sometimes very difficult to do. I'm sure you know that but, you know, you get as old as I am, it's so hard to differentiate fiction from the truth. You don't know whether or not you dreamed it.
PRYOR: Our system just doesn't calibrate as well. I think those memories are there but it's harder to calibrate than to bring them out to the surface.
MCMATH: That's right. You know...
PRYOR: They call that a "senior moment".
MCMATH: Right. Right. Maybe you dreamed it or maybe somebody told you about it. If it's repeated enough, you know, it's ought to be part of your memory.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: But there are several instances during my childhood up to, at least, ten (10) years of age that I remember vividly which really had an impact on my life.
PRYOR: Tell us about it.
MCMATH: Well, you mentioned picking cotton. I picked cotton on a farm up to about, let's see, seven (7), eight (8) or nine (9) years of age, I guess, when I was picking cotton and I was a good cotton picker. I could pick a hundred pounds a day, you know. You got a $1.00 a pound. So, I'd get, I mean, a Cent ($.01) a pound, not a $1.00 a pound. I'd make a $1.00 a day.
PRYOR: A $1.00 a day.
MCMATH: And so I'd save my money and, of course...
PRYOR: That's how you bought that bicycle.
MCMATH: Well, that was Hot Springs.
PRYOR: Okay.
MCMATH: Well, anyway, I was saving my money and I kept it in a sack and when I got a certain amount, I'd make stacks of it and count it and I'd always look at the date in which it was made. I was told the older a piece of a coin was, the more valuable it was. So, I kept it as long as I could.
PRYOR: Well, that was a good way to save money.
MCMATH: I kept it as long as I could. But then after a while it's irresistible and spend it, you know. Of course, most of our things were bought through the Sears and Roebuck catalog. So, many of the things that people back at that time came from the Sears and Roebuck catalog. That was a big event in a year's life for the Sears and Roebuck to come along but then you can't select it and feel it and smell it and try it on and so forth.
PRYOR: Right. You could, at that time I think, order a home through Sears and Roebuck. You could order a pre-built home, I believe.
MCMATH: I suppose you could. You could certainly order everything else. But I decided I'd go down to a country store about two (2) miles from where we lived and I took some of my money with me and I was going to make some purchases. So, I went down and, of course, you've been in these country stores, you know, general stores, and they have everything.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: You know.
PRYOR: Yeah.
MCMATH: And they have cotton seed and meal and sugar and flour and coffee and canned goods and bananas and all of these smells blend together.
PRYOR: Right. A great aroma. A great aroma.
MCMATH: And then there's usually a lot of old men sitting around, a lot of them, a few old men, they were usually sitting around smoking a pipe and that pipe tobacco.
PRYOR: Right. Blends in.
MCMATH: Blends in and they've got coffee and so forth. So, I went in and I looked over everything real good and I remember pretty well what I purchased. The first I bought was a dog collar for my dog. I had a dog and his name was Buluga and we were real good companions. So, I bought him a dog collar and I got a pair of shoes. You had to try them on.
PRYOR: How much did a pair of shoes cost?
MCMATH: Oh, I don't know.
PRYOR: About $2.00?
MCMATH: About $2.00, yeah. It didn't cost very much. Of course, we wore shoes when it was cold weather. Didn't need them otherwise, you know. And I bought me a pair of blue jeans and I bought me a blue jean shirt and I got a big Florida orange. I got a great, big red apple. I got a Florida orange for my sister and a big apple for my sister and I bought some chocolate drops for my mother. She loved chocolate. So, I went home with those prized possessions.
PRYOR: And this was the first time to do any purchasing on your own.
MCMATH: From my cotton money, my cotton picking money, yeah. Well, of course, I had a chance to see how people lived.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: You know, we were really, it's sort of like depression, '28, '29, along in there and the '30s. We had a depression all the time and that part of South Arkansas, generally in the South, particularly in the rural areas because we still hadn't recovered from the Civil War.
PRYOR: If I'm not mistaken your father and your family, you were moving around so he could make a better living. You moved to Smackover and over in Union County and a couple of other communities and maybe even back down to Columbia County and then on to Hot Springs.
MCMATH: That's right. That's right. He was, my dad really didn't live farming but he lived horses and he liked to deal in cattle. So, he would trade and traffic in horses and cows and he would break horses and one of the reasons we went to Foreman was because it's on the Oklahoma line and he could have a great opportunity to trade in livestock and people would bring him horses to break and...
PRYOR: Well, did you ever have to break any horses?
MCMATH: No, I never had to break any horses but I had to ride one several times.
PRYOR: I'll bet you did.
MCMATH: My dad bought a horse sight unseen and he was over in Oklahoma, across the line, and the farmer told my dad that well, that horse you can hitch him behind your car and you can lead him home. My dad had a car with the top down and so forth and he said, "Well, I'll do that" and so he took me with him. And we finally found the farm where the horse was and we found the horse. My dad got acquainted with the horse. He talked to him and told him what was going to happen to get his confidence and so forth and all he brought with him was a halter and a rope. So, he put the halter on him and he tied him behind the car and we started for home. Well, the horse was very cooperative until we got off of his farm, the farm where he lived and then he sat back down. He sat back down. He was stubborn. He wouldn't go anywhere and so my dad tried several times to get him to cooperate and he wouldn't do it and he finally got a good idea. He said, "Well, you just ride him home." I was, I guess I was seven (7). And you will ride him home. I didn't' have a saddle, didn't have a bridle. So, he made an improvised bridle out of the halter. He tied one end of the halter and the other end, the loose end of the rope to the halter. I got on him. Well, my dad rode along with us for a little while and then he thought we were in good shape, so he went on home. But the horse and I had some differences but we finally made it home and it was a long ride bareback and when we got home my mother was glad to see me but she really gave him a tongue lashing.
PRYOR: I'll bet she did.
MCMATH: But he always bragged on me about that. He bragged on me and he bragged on me like he used to brag on one of his big dogs he had. He had a big dog when we lived on the farm, he just loved, one of the greatest dogs you've ever seen and that's what I was saying and so when he bragged on me as he bragged on that dog, well, I felt real good.
PRYOR: You know, this is the second time in our brief few moments together and your memory is phenomenal about all of this. It's amazing you can remember that but two (2) times you've mentioned "dogs" in our interview. Later on, don't let me forget that, because I am absent-minded, I want to ask you about "Old Red". I want to ask you about Old Red because I remember kind of growing up in one of your campaigns, about a campaign issue about Old Red living at the Governor's mansion. We'll get in to that, but, let's, if we could, let's move now to Hot Springs and you are now what? Twelve or so or in school system at Hot Springs.
MCMATH: David, let me, before we get to Hot Springs.
PRYOR: Sure. I was ten (10) years of age.
MCMATH: Let me say a word. You mentioned, we mentioned Bussey.
PRYOR: Uh-huh. Bussey, Arkansas.
MCMATH: Bussey, Arkansas. Bussey, Arkansas had about 50 people living there. It's a wonderful community, and the track, the train drove right through the town and our house was right next to the track and when a train came through there, as it did, it was a water stop sometimes but if it didn't stop, it sounded like it was going right through your living room. And we were talking about separating memories from imagination, dreams or something someone might have told you, there are some of the things about Bussey that I remember distinctly. One was I went to my first grade at school in Bussey. And it was a one (1) room school house. My mother walked me to school. We walked down a dirt road for about three (3) or four (4) miles and we got to the school house and about the time it was taking up. The teacher rang a bell and we all went in. We had about 25 students all in one room and I don't remember exactly what the preliminaries were because I wasn't paying attention to that. I was plotting my escape. I was going to get out of there. Well, as soon as the preliminaries were over, all the students went to their assigned seats. My mother left the school house and I went to a window to watch her clear the school ground and as soon as she got clear of the school ground I skee-daddled out. I left the school, I skee-daddled over to this railroad track which was a short cut home and I got on that railroad track and I hot-footed it towards home and there was one hazard I had to cross which was a swamp and in this swamp they had alligators and moccasins. So, I soft-pedaled over that swamp and then I ran home and my mother got home and I was sitting on the front porch.
PRYOR: You beat her home.
MCMATH: Yeah, I beat her home.
PRYOR: You beat her home.
MCMATH: Yeah, but anyway...
PRYOR: That is a great story.
MCMATH: ...she sent me back to school.
PRYOR: Tell the people where Bussey is.
MCMATH: Well, Bussey is, it's west of Magnolia.
PRYOR: It's in Columbia County.
MCMATH: Yeah, in Columbia County about ten (10) miles and then Taylor is south of Bussey and the little town is still there and the house that I lived in is still there. I was in there not long ago.
PRYOR: And also tell a story about you when you were growing up that the only way you could get from Magnolia to Taylor, which was to ride a horse.
MCMATH: Yeah.
MCMATH: The roads were so bad. You said, if I ever get to become Governor, I'm going to pave this road some day and sure enough you did.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: You did it when you were Governor.
MCMATH: When I was campaigning for Governor, I went down to Taylor and the road was so bad I had to ride my horse, rode my horse down there and, of course, you know, the newspaper people go along, they usually are, I said, "If I'm elected Governor, this is going to be the first to pave."
PRYOR: And I think that was too.
MCMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: We won't go in to the Governor's years yet but when you did become Governor, and speaking of rural communities like Taylor and Bussey, Smackover and others, I understand that when you became Governor there were eight (8) counties in our State that didn't have a mile of paved roads. Well, we're going to talk about that in just a moment. Let's move on to Hot Springs now. You're in the school system and you become sort of, you enjoyed debating and speech classes and you participated in some competitive speaking I believe here and there and did you have a teacher maybe that inspired you in this field?
MCMATH: Well, one of the greatest things that happened to me in my was our move to Hot Springs. They had an excellent school and Hot Springs is a cosmopolitan place. You met people from all different places and backgrounds and so forth and people came there from all over the world and, of course, you talk about working, I did all kinds of work in Hot Springs as a youngster. And I went to high school there.
PRYOR: And if I'm not mistaken you went to the Hot Springs High School and this particular high school has two (2) very, very famous graduates. One being Sidney Sanders McMath and the other is William Jefferson Clinton.
MCMATH: Right.
PRYOR: So, there must be something in the water there.
MCMATH: They had some dedicated teachers.
PRYOR: Dedicated teachers.
MCMATH: And one of the teachers that we had was a music teacher, Elizabeth Bow, Elizabeth Bow. She was a excellent music teacher and she had a glee club and I signed up with the music department because there was so many girls in that class, very attractive girls. So, I thought I'd join the glee club and so she cast me in a musical and, of course we used the student body as a captive audience, you know, for try-outs, for rehearsals and so forth. And, so this was the rehearsal before the show, the night before the show and it came time for me to go center stage and sing my song. Well, I couldn't hit a note. I couldn't hit a note and I talked the song.
PRYOR: You talked through the song.
MCMATH: Yeah. Well, needless to say Ms. Bow got me out of her class and put me in the speech class, Lois Alexander, a great dramatic coach and speech teacher and so forth and so she encouraged me and she put me in a debate. We were going to, she told me one day, she said you're going to enter the debate down at the district meeting down at Ouachita and you'll have so and so as your partner and this is the subject and so forth. And I told her, well, I didn't think I could do that. She said, "You're going to do it or else." So, I did it and we won second place.
PRYOR: Wonderful.
MVMATH: And the fact that there were only two (2) entries and then then she gave me a declamation to enter in to the academic debate and it was in Little Rock and I remember the name of the oration. It was All Embracing America by Congressman William D. Upshaw. And so, I did that and then she put me in a one act play and it was the Valiant and again we used the student body as an audience. We just punished them to no end and so, some several years ago we had a class reunion and I talked to the group. I asked them, I said, "How many of you remember the Valiant?" All their went up and I said, "Well, now how many of you remember the closing lines?" And in unison, they said, "Cowards die many times before their death but the Valiant, they taste death only once."
PRYOR: That makes chill bumps.
MCMATH: So, when I went to the University of Arkansas I had two (2) things on my mind, military and politics.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: So, I kind of divided it.
PRYOR: You left Hot Springs High School and went for a period to Henderson.
MCMATH: Yeah. Well, that was two (2) terms. Yeah, Henderson Brown at that time, that's right..
PRYOR: Probably a Methodist school and, of course, now it is Henderson University, Henderson State University.
MCMATH: Well, now I went to Henderson, Henderson State for part of the time and they gave me a job and I went down there in order to prepare myself for a written examination to the Naval Academy. There was a Chief of Police, the National Park Police in Hot Springs, Richard L. Gaffney, and he had a Scout troop that I was a member of, the third Boy Scout troop in Hot Springs and he had a Boys Club and he was an unofficial recruiter for the Marine Corps. The Marine Corp was involved in Nicaragua at the time and he had all of these recruiting posters about the Marine Corp, see, and so forth. So, I got the idea I wanted to be a Marine and he gave me these posters and I painted my room with them. Well, he thought it would be a good idea if I went to the Naval Academy. So, Congressman D. D. Glover, a great man, a wonderful family.
PRYOR: From Malvern, I believe.
MCMATH: From Malvern, a wonderful family, gave an appointment to the Naval Academy. So, I went down to Henderson to kind of prep out on it and there's a wonderful lady down there that tried to help me with my math. You see, when I was in high school, when I got involved in dramatics, I neglected my science and math. See? So, it caught up with me.
PRYOR: Right.
MCMATH: So, when I took my examination for the Naval Academy, I flunked it. I flunked it.
PRYOR: Because of the math. Or rather the lack of math.
MCMATH: Yeah, the lack of math. So, I saddled up and I went to the University of Arkansas and I signed up with the Reserve Officers Corp, you know, for a four (4) year tour and then I took my pre-law. And so I was involved in dramatics and the military and getting ready to go to law school at the University of Arkansas.
PRYOR: So, you went on to the University for some under-graduate work.
MCMATH: Yeah.
PRYOR: And then you went to the law school at the University of Arkansas.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: By that time you'd had some drama. You'd been in some plays. You were in debate and speech and all of this seemed to be very good preparation for ultimately your two (2) careers, political, well, three (3) careers, the military, politics and law.
MCMATH: That's right.
PRYOR: And I think that's a grand, grand background for those professions.
MCMATH: I had a problem. I got the commission with the Marine Corp because they gave one (1) commission from each land grant college to the Marine Corp. Well, I got that but I had to complete my ROTC training camp in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. And I had to go to law school to get my law degree that summer to get my law degree. Well, the problem was that the first four (4) weeks, they ran simultaneously. The ROTC camp was at Fort Leavenworth. Of course, the law school was at Fayetteville. So, how was I going to do both? So, I had to scoot. So, I signed up in to law school. I put on my ROTC uniform and hitch-hiked to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Signed up there, spent a week, hitch-hiked back to Fayetteville, spent a week and back and forth for four (4) weeks. They never missed me at either place.
PRYOR: I'll declare. That's a wonderful story. That's a great story.
MCMATH: So, I got my commission in the Marine Corp and I got my law degree.
PRYOR: During this time, Governor, way back in the back of your mind, here you were, you were involved in your law school training and going to school and your ROTC, did you have politics in your mind? Did you think about politics? Did you think about some day running for an office.
MCMATH: Well, I thought about running for Governor when I was in high school and I was president of my freshman, sophomore, junior and senior classes and then, of course, at the University, I was president of the student body. So, I had it in my mind and, of course, to be in the military and to be in politics and to be a lawyer, and, you know, you don't know how you're going to work it in.
PRYOR: That's right.
MCMATH: And so I went in the Marine Corp and spent a year, 1936 and came home in '37. I came home to marry Elaine Brockington and at that time the Marine Corp, its' policy was that if you were a Second Lieutenant you couldn't married. You had to be in the Marine Corp two (2) years before you could get married and the policy that if the Marine Corp wanted you to have a bride they'd issue you one. So, I went on to marry Elaine and to practice law but that was in '37 and the paint of my shingle hadn't got dry and, of course the war began and I felt an obligation to go back in.
PRYOR: So, you actually went back in the Marine right before, a year before Pearl Harbor.
MCMATH: Yeah, that's right.
PRYOR: You went back August, 1940.
MCMATH: Yeah, August, 1940. I stayed in the Marine Corp until the war was over.
PRYOR:Right. Okay.
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