SIDNEY McMATH - DAVID PRYOR Transcript Two

SIDNEY McMATH - DAVID PRYOR

PRYOR: Well, Governor, you went back into the Marines there. I believe you took your commission, so to speak.

McMATH: Yes.

PRYOR: You had had the Reserve and then you went back in to active duty a year before Pearl Harbor.

McMATH: Right.

PRYOR: What were you doing on Pearl Harbor Day, by the way? You remember that day. All of us do.

McMATH: Yeah. After I went home, as you mentioned, as we mentioned, I went back in in August of 1940, a year before Pearl Harbor and the reason I went back in, I felt obliged to and then I had a reserve commission. And so, when I was getting out of the Corp in 1937, a Colonel, Captain Louie Chesty Fuller, one of the most famous Marines ever, highly decorated, came by my quarters to see me. And he said, "Sandy", he called Scotch men "Sandy", he said, "I can understand you going home to marry your sweetheart and to practice law but let me tell you something", he said, "You need to take a reserve commission because we're going to war." And that was in 1937.

PRYOR: Four (4) years.

McMATH: He foresaw four (4) years before the war against Japan.

PRYOR: And he even thought it to and predicted it to be Japan, is that right?

McMATH: That's right. That's right. He thought it was Japan and the Marine Corp was getting psychologically prepared for a war against Japan. See? At that time, of course, the Marine Corp was a small organization. They had only about 17,000 Marines and at the end of the war they had five (5) divisions, you know. But anyway, and so, I took the commission and went back in to the Marine Corp. I went through a refresher course and then I stayed on at Quanaco at the Marine Training School there, training second lieutenants, officer candidates for two (2) years. And Elaine joined me in Quanaco and we had our son in Quanaco. Sandy was born there.

PRYOR: Sandy. Okay.

McMATH: Yeah, and then she died. She died on our fifth wedding anniversary.

PRYOR: And what age was she at that time?

McMATH: She was 25.

PRYOR: What a tragedy.

McMATH: And so, and then I requested overseas duty. And General Shepherd was the commander of the school at the time. Lemmel Shepherd. He subsequently became Commandant of the Marine Corp and I had put in three (3) applications for a transfer. The third time, the application I put in, he sent for me and he says, and of course I went in and Lou was standing in front of the desk. He said "McMath, how long would it take you to pack altogether?" I said, "I've got it together, sir." And he said, "You'll get on the next bus to New Miller, North Carolina. You're going to join the Third Regiment, you're going to join the Third Marine Division and you're going to the Solomens."

PRYOR: My goodness.

McMATH: So, I went down and joined the Third Marine Regiment and we were just putting it together and then we went on out to the Pacific area.

PRYOR: The military has always been an important part of Sidney McMath's life.

McMATH: It has.

PRYOR: Because it's always been a very meaningful part, I should say, in your life and also in your career you've had and just recently you were saluted on Flag Day by the local citizens here and it's really, in fact, it seems like every time I pick up the paper or turn on the TV, here's Governor McMath once again being saluted by some group, be it at the Old State House, Convention Center or the Bar Association or a group of military people. And so, it's kind of a McMath renascence period, I believe. It's a grand tribute to you, sir.

McMATH: Somebody discovered I was still around.

PRYOR: Well, it's a grand tribute to you.

McMATH: Yeah.

PRYOR: And really a wonderful thing.

McMATH: Well, the military was, it was an important part of my life and it was a privilege to serve and I feel it's my greatest contribution, if I made a contribution, I made some contribution, was as a training officer. At Quanaco I trained for about two (2) years. I was training officer candidates and not only were they outstanding youngsters, honor students from colleges and so forth, some of them went on to be Senators, Judges and so forth. As a matter of fact I tried a case about five (5) years ago before a Judge who was one of my students in officer candidate school in Quanaco.

PRYOR: What a small world.

McMATH: And then I went, we went overseas, the Marines landed in Solomens in August, 1942, the first Marine Division and we were to join the first Marine Division but en route we were diverted to America Samoa. You know, that was a base of really operations in that part of the world and to protect it against the Japanese who were moving south towards New Zealand and Australia. So, as soon as I got ashore I said, "Well, I'm sure I'm going to get a company or a battalion since I was a Major by then." And they gave me word that I was going to be the training officers for jungle warfare school.

PRYOR: Oh, my. Well, that was important.

McMATH: So, we set up a jungle warfare school and put the non-commissioned officers and the junior officers or the Third Marine Regiment through the jungle warfare school. See? And then, of course, after that I was made Operations Officer for the Third Marine Regiment and that's where we were.

PRYOR: So, you saw some real combat at Guadal Canal, Guam, Gugandel, in the Solomon Island Chain and the Pacific Theater, so to speak and here you come out of the Marines and you are decorated with the Legion of Merit, the Silver Star. You are now a Major, you became a Major General in the United States Marine Reserve, if I'm not mistaken.

McMATH: Yeah.

PRYOR: So, once again we see the real impact the military has had on your life.

McMATH: Yeah. I was in Guadal Canal. When I was not in Guadal Canal the first phase.

PRYOR: I see.

McMATH: Guadal Canal was pretty well secure by the time we got there. We used Guadal Canal as a space to go up to New Georgia and Bellalabella, Gunvenville. And we had a lot of activity in Guadal Canal. We still had conflicts and so forth but the big fighting was over when I got over there.

PRYOR: Right. Well, Governor, your military career is one thing and your legal career. Let's talk a little bit about that political career. Let's talk about when you leave the Marines. You come back and you come back to Hot Springs, as you come to Garland County, Arkansas. Tell us about Garland County and what was that? 1945 when you came back.

McMATH: Came back in '45, that's correct.

PRYOR: Tell us about Garland County. What was going on?

McMATH: Well, Garland County, of course, as I previously stated, we moved there when I was ten (10) years of age and so I stayed there through high school and, of course kept contact with Hot Springs and certainly until I went into the Marine Corp and the situation in Hot Springs from a political standpoint was, to say the least was sad, was tragic. We had illegal gambling in Hot Springs and it wasn't just the gambling per se that was so bad, really evil but in order to operate there illegally, the machine had to control the election machinery, appoint the judges and clerks, the elected commission and so forth and so that they could control all law enforcement officials, the mayor, Their prosecuting attorney, the circuit judge...

PRYOR: Up and down the line.

McMATH: ...up and down the line. See? And they selected the Grand Jurors and they selected the Petty Jurors and if you had a lawsuit over in the Municipal Court, hey, you had to be on the right side if you were going to get anything like justice or if you had a case out of Circuit Court out at the Court House, if the opposition had an interest in the other side, well, you were in trouble because they selected the Jurors and the Jurors came from people downtown, the casinos, the bookies, the houses of ill-fame and so forth or businesses who relied with the administration and beholding to them for operations. They could do you in and so forth. They could raise your taxes or if you're in a certain business that required a license, they could make it difficult for you to get license or the license might be revoked and if you persisted in opposing them, you'd be in serious trouble.

PRYOR: So, here you were in your early thirties.

McMATH: Yeah.

PRYOR: You'd come back. You'd located in Hot Springs, Arkansas and all of a sudden you look around and you see that there is a machine that is a machine county and that there's an individual by the name of Leo McCloughlin. Who is Leo McCloughlin? Who was he?

McMATH: Well, Leo was a very personable guy, had great charisma, had great ability and he'd gone to law school out at Tulane and he was elected Mayor. He was a colorful guy. He wore a straw hat turned up in the front and had a boutonniere on all the time, dressed immaculately. He had two (2) horses named Scotch and Soda. He'd hitch them up to a buggy and ride down through Central Avenue to be admired by vassels and so forth. See? And he was an excellent speaker. He could really rouse a lot, you know, and when they had a political campaign he was interested in, he'd have everybody come over to the auditorium and he'd give them a speech and they'd get their instruction. And sometimes he'd go out and he'd try a lawsuit. Now, he practiced law.

PRYOR: But he didn't hold an office, did he?

McMATH: He was the Mayor.

PRYOR: He was the Mayor at that time?

McMATH: Mayor. He had been a Mayor for many years. Yes he was the Mayor.

PRYOR: That's right.

McMATH: So, he presided as the Mayor and his Second Lieutenant was the Municipal Judge. See? The Municipal Judge and so they kind of ran things. And, as I say, if you had a case out at Circuit Court and he was on the other side you were in trouble probably. So, there were other GIs who had come back and we weren't intimidated, so to speak, and we felt that we'd been fighting for freedom around the world and we said to use a little of it at home. So...

PRYOR: Did you get these other GIs together?

McMATH: Yeah, I got them together.

PRYOR: What did you do? Did you meet at your home? Did you go to the Court House? You couldn't get in the Court House because those were all his people, I imagine.

McMATH: Well, there was a good citizen by the Earl Ricks.

PRYOR: Earl Ricks.

McMATH: Earl Ricks and another citizen by the name of Raymond Clinton, the uncle of the President. They had a Clinton/Ricks Buick Agency. And they had a huge garage and so we held out meetings in the Ricks/Clinton garage. And of course...

PRYOR: I don't imagine they got to sell very many cars to the city...

McMATH: No.

PRYOR: ...with the Mayor McCloughlin.

McMATH: So, that's where we met most of the time.

PRYOR: Right. Well, did you have to meet in secret?

McMATH: No, we didn't meet in secret. We kept our flags flying.

PRYOR: Is this what is known as the GI Revolution?

McMATH: That was the GI Revolution.

PRYOR: And most of the people involved were young men like yourself and maybe young women who had served their country and came...

McMATH: That's right.

PRYOR: ...who had come back.

McMATH: That's right. And they weren't in business. They couldn't be closed down. Their licenses couldn't be revoked and so forth and we just wanted to make a change and we thought that the time was right to do it.

PRYOR: And so you ran for...

McMATH: I ran for...

PRYOR: And so you ran for - what was your base? You ran for Prosecuting Attorney.

McMATH: That's right.

PRYOR: Was there an incumbent Prosecuting Attorney?

McMATH: Yes. Now we had a candidate for every spot, from Constable on up as the GI candidate and we ran, I guess it was in the primary, the primary was in '46 and we were, I was the only one elected in the primary. And I was elected because Montgomery County was a part of that judicial district, the 18th Judicial District and I swept Montgomery County to make up for what counts, you know, the count in Garland and some how the telephone communication between Malvern and Hot Springs were cut. So, the people in Garland County didn't know and it was too late how many votes that they needed in order to overcome the votes from Montgomery County. And so, we organized an independent party and all the candidates, the GI candidates who had been defeated ran an independents for the offices that they'd run for in the primary.

PRYOR: Didn't have really a Republican Party at that time.

McMATH: No, we had no Republican Party.

PRYOR: We had one Republican in Camden at that time. Only one person. Things have changed a lot.

McMATH: Judge Isley's grandfather and father were probably the only Republicans there and they was a lawyer by the name of Richard Ryan who also was a Republican. There were others that we didn't know about. Anyway we organized the independent party and the candidates all ran and of course, in the primary, you'll recall in the primary you had to get your poll tax. That was when you had to get your poll tax.

PRYOR: Yeah, we want to talk about the poll tax after a while.

McMATH: You had to get a year before. See? And so the people then particularly weren't interested in elections. They thought, well, my votes is not going to count. It's not going to do any good anyway but then when I won, see, people got interested. They thought, well maybe there's a chance. So, we organized a drive to get the poll tax for the general election and you could, as I recall, you could get the poll tax for the general election 20 days before the election. See?

PRYOR: Before the election.

McMATH: So, the women particularly got spread out and called people to the polls and got on the telephone and of course, we swept the field in the general election, elected everybody. See?

PRYOR: So, the whole slate, that was the GI revolution had taken place.

McMATH: The whole slate. That was the GI revolution. That's right.

PRYOR: And that was in 1946.

McMATH: Okay.

PRYOR: Speaking of lawyers at that time, I've always heard, and I knew him eventually. I served with him in the State Legislature. A man I admired a great deal. He's a very complex man, I might say, Nathan Shoenfeld. Nathan was sort of an ally of yours at that time?

McMATH: Nathan was one of my closest friends.

PRYOR: That is correct. He was a brilliant man.

McMATH: He was smart.

PRYOR: Wasn't he a Harvard Law School?

McMATH: I don't remember what his school was. It was Harvard or anyway, he was a brilliant guy and he was a tremendous help.

PRYOR: So, in all the election machinery...

McMATH: So, in that election, I neglected to say, that in the general election, of course, we avoided those illegal poll taxes. We brought suit in the United States Federal Court and we were able to get the issue in Federal Court because I had a friend in Pine Bluff, named of Pat Mullis, who volunteered to run as an independent. File as an independent. See? And it gave the Federal Court jurisdiction over the issue because a Federal Office, a Congressman was going to be voted on. And so we threw out maybe 3,000, 4,000 of those illegal poll taxes and made it possible.

PRYOR: Now, if I'm not mistaken Dr. Robert A. Lefler at the University of Arkansas Law School, the Venerable Dean of the Law School and probably the best known man in legal circles in our history. Dr. Lefler also became a semi-advisor to you and Nathan Shoenfeld and the other people who were attempting to bring back...

McMATH: That's correct. We had, I had a close relationship with Dr. Lefler.

PRYOR: Yes. And you had been a student...

McMATH: Yes, with his brother Eli Lefler.

PRYOR: Yes.

McMATH: And I got to know him real well when I was a student. Of course, he was a tremendous teacher. A great lawyer and one of the things that I was trying to start as Governor, that I did, I appointed him to the Supreme Court. He always wanted to serve on the Supreme Court.

PRYOR: Great man.

McMATH: He had run at one time, you know, buy he wasn't politically inclined. He was a student. And this made it possible for him to conduct this judge's school in New York, to conduct an annual seminar for newly elected judges.

PRYOR: He flew back and forth to New York all the time.

McMATH: A remarkable thing to do. A remarkable man.

DAVID: I hope some day that the historians will give him a very, very exalted praise in Arkansas.

McMATH: Have you met his son?

PRYOR: Oh, yes. Know him well.

McMATH: Do you know he speak Japanese?

PRYOR: He speaks Japanese and he's going to teach a course at Harvard in the next several months. He's going to teach. He's a wonderful young man and our legal profession is lucky to have him. So, what did Sid McMath his first few weeks at a Prosecutor, Prosecuting Attorney in Garland County?

McMATH: Well, of course, the first thing we do we convene a Grand Jury to investigate the gambling operations and see what their earnings were and see what they did with the money and so forth and of course, we closed down all the illegal gambling in Hot Springs. They had the race track but that was a legal operation. And we...

PRYOR: The casinos were closed down.

McMATH: The casinos, the bookies, everything were closed down. That was the first thing we did and then we had a few cases to prosecute and then I started campaigning for Governor.

PRYOR: And you ran for Governor two (2) years later.

McMATH: Two (2) years later.

PRYOR: 1948?

McMATH: 1948.

PRYOR: Okay. So, who was the Governor of Arkansas at that time? Ben Laney.

McMATH: Ben Laney. Of course, Ben Laney, we had some differences but, you know, the equalization plan, the distribution of funds.

PRYOR: The Revenue Specialization Act.

McMATH: The Revenue Specialization Act. You know, you can't spend more money than you take in.

PRYOR: That's right.

McMATH: That was a tremendous boom and he was responsible for that.

PRYOR: Right.

McMATH: That was in his administration.

PRYOR: I think that's how he got the name "Business Ben."

McMATH: Business Ben. We had this direction and he was running on his record as a businessman and his people were bragging about how he had cut taxes. And so we did a little research on how much cut taxes that he had reduced and, of course, I liked Ben. He was a very personable guy and we found out he had reduced taxes on lightning rods, bee hives and buggy whips. So, that was our theme. So, it was lightning rods, bee hives and buggy whips.

PRYOR: That is a great Arkansas political story. Ben Laney from Camden. In fact, our homes were next door to the Laneys and our families would sort of intermingle there to some extent.

McMATH: So, Ben Laney, in 1948 was involved with the DixieCrats.

PRYOR: That's right. And we want to talk about the DixieCrats after while. Ben Laney became very infatuated with the Democrats and at one time, I understand that Strom Thurman...

McMATH: Do you mean the DixieCrats?

PRYOR: The DixieCrats. Strom Thurman, when he walked out of the convention, I guess he would have been Governor of South Carolina at that time.

McMATH: Strom Thurman, yeah, I guess so.

PRYOR: And he, at one time, maybe he even wanted Ben Laney to become his running mate on the DixieCrat ticket for President. You did a very courageous thing in 1948 and here you were not Governor. You were the Governor elect. You'd been elected in the primary and we were faced with the decision in our country of Thomas Dewey or Harry Truman and in 1948. That every one, every one assumed that Thomas Dewey would just clobber Harry Truman and defeat him and send him off into obscurity but Harry Truman won that race. Arkansas was one of the very few southern states that remained loyal to the National Democratic ticket. Now, why was that?

McMATH: Well, Truman, at that time, was unpopular principally because of the civil rights program and the DixieCrats, as you indicate, when they were in the convention, Strom Thurman, Fielding Wright, Ben Laney and so forth were in the Democratic convention in Chicago and they were unhappy about the platform and so forth. So, they withdrew from the convention and I think they went to either Montgomery, Alabama or Jackson, Mississippi. I don't remember exactly which one it was and nominated Fielding Wright as President and Strom Thurman as Vice President and Governor Laney chaired that DixieCrat meeting. See? Well...

PRYOR: You don't think they flew the Confederate flag here and there, do you?

McMATH: Yeah, but as you know, as you pointed out, all the polls indicated that Truman would be defeated and no one thought he would win except Harry Truman. And he was a great President and I imagine we'll have an opportunity to talk about him.

PRYOR: I'd love to talk about your relationship.

McMATH: But as soon as I was nominated in '48, one of the things that I did immediately and two (2) or three (3) things that I took on but I feel that the most important thing I did was start campaigning for President Truman. And we were able to carry Arkansas by a real good vote, a majority vote and as I remember we were the only southern state that stayed in the Democratic party. Maybe, North Carolina I don't guess was considered a southern state, a deep southern state, but anyway Arkansas stayed in the Democratic party and President Truman appreciated that and he came to Arkansas several times.

PRYOR: There's a fabulous picture of you and President Truman walking down Main Street and he had on a white suit and a Panama hat and you were in a dark suit with your red famous red tie and y'all were spiffy. I'll tell you that. That's a great political.

McMATH: Bob McCord took that picture. Bob McCord took that picture and it won a national award...

PRYOR: It's a great picture. It says so much about that era.

McMATH: Yeah. You know, that was the 35th Division reunion. His old Army outfit. You know, Truman was a Captain in the First World War, you know. There's a National Guard out there. And so he always went to their conventions and he always marched with the troops. So, on this occasion he came to Arkansas and we marched down Main Street as you indicated in front of the troops and when we got down to Markham, we turned west or left on Markham and went on up to the old Marion Hotel.

PRYOR: I want to ask you about that. They say that you had a private audience with President Truman. Could you tell on the television about what you and Truman did or talked about?

McMATH: I think so. I think we can tell about it.

PRYOR: You were in the Marion Hotel.

McMATH: Marion Hotel in the Presidential Suite, the Presidential Suite and you didn't have all the entourage around the President that you have now. So, we had a quiet visit. It was in July or it was in the summer. I think it was July. We went into the suites and he said, "Governor, how would you like to have a drink?" I wasn't about to turn him down.

PRYOR: Wow. The President of the United States.
McMATH: I wasn't about to turn him down. I said, "That's fine, Mr. President." He said, "Well, how about Bourbon and branch water?" "Great." He said, "Well, you're going to be waited on by the highest paid bar tender in the world."

PRYOR: That is...

McMATH: Well, I looked around and there wasn't anybody but the two of us

PRYOR: So, Harry Truman poured you a drink.

McMATH: He gets behind the bar and he took one of the low ball glasses and he poured half of Bourbon and half of water. And we sat down to visit for 45 minutes to an hour. Talked, he talked, I listened. He wanted an attentive ear and I provided it for him and it was a very...

PRYOR: Did you talk about the upcoming election that he was going through?

McMATH: Actually...

PRYOR: Actually this was '49. Actually this was after he had defeated Dewey.

McMATH: That's right. And old Dewey, you talk about pictures. Do you remember the Chicago Herald?

PRYOR: Oh, yeah.

McMATH: That big headline "Dewey defeats Truman" and the picture of Truman holding that up.

PRYOR: Oh, he loved that.

McMATH: That big, big smile.

PRYOR: He was rubbing that in, wasn't he? He was rubbing it in because of course, he was so controversial, Harry Truman as a President.

McMATH: Yeah he was.

PRYOR: But he was tough. Wasn't he a tough pine knot?

McMATH: He never took a poll and he had a sign on his desk, that said, "The buck stops here."

PRYOR: "The buck stops here" and he didn't blame anything when something went wrong.

McMATH: That's right and nobody thought he'd amount to anything.

PRYOR: Right.

McMATH: They thought he was just a penny grass politician.

PRYOR: Right. But from Kansas City...

McMATH: But he had great character.

PRYOR: Yes, sir.

McMATH: And he was ran a good state government and he was for the people.

PRYOR: And furthermore he knew and understood history. He was a historian. Harry Truman was a historian.

McMATH: He sure was.

PRYOR: And by the way, we're trying to do that right now. And so we're trying to have Arkansas history taught in all of our schools and we hope our people will get behind that effort. We're trying desperately. We've gone through now a generation and not taught Arkansas history.

McMATH: David, that's one of the finest things you can do.

PRYOR: Well, we need to do that.

McMATH: We don't, like I was telling you about going to Bussey.

PRYOR: Right.

McMATH: In the morning when we would go to school, the first thing we'd do, we'd sing the Star Spangle Banner, pledge allegiance to the flag and sing Arkansas.

PRYOR: That's right.

McMATH: That's a great song and I don't guess the kids sing it any more.

PRYOR: We sometimes have great rivalries with our friends in Texas and no question about that. We have had in the past and will have in the future but there's one thing about Texans that I admire. They're proud of their state and one reason I think they have an excessive amount of pride is because they know its history and they know the state's history. They know where they came from. They know who they are and as Dr. Gatewood at the University of Arkansas always says, "It's time we start defining ourselves and not let everyone else do it for us."

McMATH: That's right.

PRYOR: So, I'm really hope that our state will get behind this effort and we're going to really make an effort.

McMATH: That's great. You know Arkansas needs to be proud of their state and no state has had a more fabulous, colorful event in the history of Arkansas and if you know our history you have to be proud of the state.

PRYOR: That is correct. So, here you are, you were ..

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TRANSCRIBED BY:
PATSY BILLINGS
8308 KEATS DRIVE
LITTLE ROCK, AR 72209
501-562-5267
email: billings@sitemall.net